I can come up with a ton of things that don't quite make sense. Like my favorite line from a parodied song that will remain nameless: "He's no #$!%ing dragon. Now he's dead." We're led to believe that Viseris is as much a Targerian as Danyeris -- that they have the same parentage. Yet she is fireproof and he apparently isn't (not sure if molten gold qualifies as "fire"). So does "blood of the dragon" not relate to blood in the kinship sense? Does the BotD skip certain Targerians? Should Maester Aemon be in charge of burning all zombies, or is he in danger of bursting into flames just like the other Nights Watchmen?
(Oh, and please forgive my spelling. I try to pick up correct spelling of character names, but it's pretty hit or miss.)
I can come up with a ton of things that don't quite make sense. Like my favorite line from a parodied song that will remain nameless: "He's no #$!%ing dragon. Now he's dead." We're led to believe that Viseris is as much a Targerian as Danyeris -- that they have the same parentage. Yet she is fireproof and he apparently isn't (not sure if molten gold qualifies as "fire"). So does "blood of the dragon" not relate to blood in the kinship sense? Does the BotD skip certain Targerians? Should Maester Aemon be in charge of burning all zombies, or is he in danger of bursting into flames just like the other Nights Watchmen?
(Oh, and please forgive my spelling. I try to pick up correct spelling of character names, but it's pretty hit or miss.)
My understanding is that Viserys has grown soft in his cushy life, while Danaerys' experiences have enriched her dragon blood.
__________________
"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
Perhaps the "Dragon Blood" DNA is not evenly spread, but sprinkled throughout the genetic basket of offspring. For example, a woman cannot wiggle her ears, but her sister can. Same parents. No logic to that, and maybe the warg and green dream abilities are also sprinkled randomly amongst family groups, not every sibling gets each trait.
I can come up with a ton of things that don't quite make sense. Like my favorite line from a parodied song that will remain nameless: "He's no #$!%ing dragon. Now he's dead." We're led to believe that Viseris is as much a Targerian as Danyeris -- that they have the same parentage. Yet she is fireproof and he apparently isn't (not sure if molten gold qualifies as "fire"). So does "blood of the dragon" not relate to blood in the kinship sense? Does the BotD skip certain Targerians? Should Maester Aemon be in charge of burning all zombies, or is he in danger of bursting into flames just like the other Nights Watchmen?
(Oh, and please forgive my spelling. I try to pick up correct spelling of character names, but it's pretty hit or miss.)
You know that you're supposed to memorise that GoT S2 Parody song in between studying for school exams
right (?) ! The memo went out to everyone and Warden Noye will administer pop quizzes
Okay, " Blood of the Dragon " as a phrase has been thrown around a lot and TV fans expect any Targaryeon posess
same or similar " powers " like submitting themselves to embrace fire or bask in heat. Danerys and Viserys are indeed
sibling Targaryeons. Danerys is perceived " special" and share a certain trait among her people that allows her to
bond with dragons. Her connection is truly strong as you saw, almost like Bran and Summer. Readers recognise
that this is another example of " warging ". I think you considered that but got a little confused by the phrase In
fact every time I heard Viserys say it , I knew he was a nut job ( it doesn't change by reading either .
Now you're aware at this point with S1-2 and the Stark children bonding with their direwolves. watch closely in
upcoming S3 to follow the strength of those bonds and warging ability. In fact you may already be aware of
warg pairs by just reviewing earlier scenes, just don't loose focus because these connections are essential to
following GRRM's stories. From what you may already know, you may answer your question about maester
Aemon Targaryeon.
An interesting point about the Targaryeon Dynasty and family, while they did have unique control over the
dragons , historically they were not the only ones to do so. There is a great deal of mystery and mysticism
in the ASOIAF books, the more pages you turn the more you sense that you have not yet finished when the
book ends. We are still speculating and sparring over charts and clues as if it's the last piece of meat on the spit.
At least we're not throwing wildfire at each other ....yet
Are you gonna start a new Topic in the future? Take your time and Think about it
Wildseed is indeed correct, if I'm not mistaken GRRM himself answered this question and said Danaerys' immunity to fire (in some degree) is not a general Targaryen trait, it only applies to her.
Wildseed is indeed correct, if I'm not mistaken GRRM himself answered this question and said Danaerys' immunity to fire (in some degree) is not a general Targaryen trait, it only applies to her.
Okay, okay, but if it only applies to her how come (ADWD book spoiler ahead)
Spoiler
Quentyn didn't get burned to a crisp; but seemed to have some apparent immunity?
__________________
"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
As I was driving home this evening, I was contemplating wildlings. My thinking about them until now was that they are similar to the ranchers and rural farmers around here. They're decent hard-working people who don't have the time or inclination for BS. They don't like people looking down on them, and it's dangerous to underestimate them. I pictured Mance Rayder's army much as I picture our locals when they call a meeting to decide what they're going to do about whatever the latest injustice coming from the state or federal govenment. They're passionate and indignant. But I think my own experiences may be coloring my view of the wildlings.
The show hasn't introduced us to many wildlings, but they have made two distinctly different impressions on me. First, there's Ygritte, speaking about the "Free Folk" and an almost idyllic life. They clearly would have a difficult life, but they are self-sufficient rugged people who are not under the thumb of the local lord or a distant king. It's an appealing vision of individuality and freedom without the need for the BS south of the wall.
Then you have Bran's initial encounter with Osha and friends. These are not self-sufficient, hard-working folk. They are about as admirable as the Greyjoys, with their lack of sowing and taking instead of earning. They are willing to steal, kidnap, and possibly even kill, with little regard for anyone but themselves. They're a menace to innocent people.
I know these differences aren't incongruous. They're an entire society, so perhaps I shouldn't jump to conclusions based on so little information. But I can't help it! I'm trying to figure out what their cultural ethos is, and it's not at all clear. Is Ygritte feeding Jon Snow a line of BS? Do these people truly have no respect for anyone else's life? Or do they simply see southerners as completely expendable or less than human? Is their sense of right and wrong so different?
Then of course there are the soldier types, like Rattleshirt, and dirty old men like Craster. They're the same as soldiers and dirty old men anywhere, as far as I can tell, so I don't give much thought to them. Craster is interesting for completely different reasons, but that's a different post.
So the scenes north of the wall next season will be particularly interesting to me in trying to answer the mystery of who these people are and what their principles are.
I cannot help but draw a parallel from GRRM's ASOIAF societies and that of past and present centuries myself. There will always exist aggregates of society that resist or mistrust unified laws and rules. The preference to operate and exist with individual expression and needs however conflicts with established rules meant to control and obligate in accordance with rules based on the needs of the majority ( an improvement from monarchies and dictatorships) in a present political system . The Non Conformists rarely held goals in common even among themselves, even in the event of recognising their plight . We understand now that unified organised efforts help forge common goals, no matter the class or status and hopefully representing the whole of society. Naturally the least among us benefits as it rightly should. Bands of marauders need not exist.
The Wildling Free Folk from the North and the Vagabonds from the Vale unfortunately did not represent regular Agrarian Folk that wanted to farm their land and meet demands posed by the king . The Non Conformists scavenged, stole, raped and plundered their way and kept a meager existence. Their victims ere more often villagers or servants enroute to sell their goods or make payment to the kings coffers. It was often all that they owned, perhaps an entire season's harvest or farm animal. In this the NC did not discriminate. Ironically the royals were heavily guarded and challenged them so the poor often suffered more.
In GoT Tyrion & Bronn meets up with Shagga ( I'm kinda partial to Shagga)and the Vale Vagabonds/ dangerous band of misfits and Tyrion brokers an incredible deal promising them land and Lannister gold.
North of the Wall and at bay with the Night's Watch we were introduced to the Wildlings where Rattleshirt and Ygritte made their appearance. Where these folk were sensible to build huts and lodges like Craster, they were ever bit as ruthless but exercised slightly better as smaller units. When time came to stand up against a common threat, the left their lodges and banded together. Mance Rayder ( charismatic ? ) spoke well among them and they followed his lead. GoT Ygritte kept reminding Jon Snow that they do as they please, so electing Mance must have been a 1st and a big fucking deal. Do you remember when lord Jeor Mormont questioned Craster about the emptied huts on the way ?
What both groups north and south of the Wall have in common are their survival instincts. They take what they will, make the most of it and curse the establishment. Their non compliance with the realm often leaks out as non compliance among each other at times but a common threat has everyone on alert.
In Season Three we will see more unfolding of Jon's story and of course sight of Mance Rayder. It remains a question of how much the episodes deal with their plight though, it a lot of story to streamline and most likely continued in future seasons.
Wildseed presented them better than I could, I'll just add one more thing. Yes, these are hardened, sometimes ruthless people , and the disdain for what they call southerners and crows is very real. But think of it this way, BaS. These were people just like any other, only caught on the wrong side on the Wall when the Wall was raised. Probably because they didn't want to leave their lands, or bend the knee to some lord or king that had nothing to do with them. Life on the other side of the Wall must have been extremely difficult, especially during winter. They don't seem to have ships, they can't trade with the south, plus they have to live in an extremely harsh environment. To compensate, they cling to the concept of freedom, of being able to choose your leader, and a leader you could talk to and challenge freely. And these are values that apply to women as well so yeah, in it's way it's probably the most modern system in Westeros, if we judge it by today's standards. It's important to note why Osha and her group were going south - they were running away from a very real threat. They seemed merciless (and probably were), but we also have to consider how and why they've become that, because to me it seems the South has its share of the blame for the wildlings' current state.
Jaime Lannister is easily the most handsome man in the seven kingdoms, even if he is far from the most charming. Jaime's problem that may well end up getting him killed is that he relies far too much on his good looks and natural talent to get him by. That may have served him well at 20 years old, but he is foolish to continue relying on those assets as he ages. It appears to me that he has failed to cultivate other skills that he needs to get through the difficult times he is facing at this point in the series. Normal people would have needed to do that. Instead he is an arrogant and snotty to people he ought to treat with civility. I think a good foil for Jaime is Tyrion, who grew up with the same privilege, but without Jaime's physical blessings. Tyrion has cultivated his intellect and his wit and has become incredibly savvy in order to get by.
Of course, both Lannisters also rely on their family's money and position, which is not unreasonable. It's just unlikely to get Jaime as far while in hostile territory as it did Tyrion. Could Jaime have charmed Bronn into fighting by his side? I think not. Jaime would have needed to rely purely on the greed of a sellsword like Bronn to get him out of a bad situation.
My ultimate point is that Jaime, just like Jon and Dany, has a tremendous amount of growing to do as a person, assuming he lives long enough to get there. Jaime has begun to realize that his physical prowess is (1) no longer what it was or (2) that there are a number of other fighters in the realm who are as talented as he is. I don't know which is correct. But Ser Loras beat Jaime in a tournament. And Eddard Stark at least gave him a run for his money, and may even have bested him, had the guard not intervened. And now Brienne has shocked him with her prowess with a sword. I believe the near future sees Jaime reevaluating his arrogant belief that he can best whoever steps into his path. It can't possibly be an easy transition for him, but I believe it will cause him to grow as a person (assuming he lives that long).
Obviously, Jaime can still rely on his stunningly good looks, but attractiveness can only get you so far, particularly when surrounded by men as he was throughout season 2. I really did expect him to charm some girl or other into helping him escape in season 2. I didn't expect it to be Catlyn! Let's just hope nothing horrible happens to Jaime's good looks
Spoiler
especially before the rumored bath scene all the ladies are hoping for.
(Ha! I've never had an opportunity to use those before!)
I feel genuinely sorry for Jaime on many levels. Even though he has raw talent, he has clearly never been able to meet the expectations of his father. Jaime's dislexia is surely some of the issue, but I think Tywin is disappointed in Jaime's decision to join the King's Guard instead of following in his father's footsteps. Tywin is clearly a great military mind, even if things aren't going so well for him against the Stark forces. Tywin sees the big picture, and Jaime doesn't seem to. Or at least he didn't when he was making decisions that involved a lifelong oath. I think Jaime is acutely aware of his father's disappointment, but feels powerless to change it things. And I don't know if it's lack of intellectual acument that led him to disappoint his father. Maybe it's a lack of effort. It seems to me that Jaime took the easy route throughout his life, and it has led him to a sad state of affairs.
Jaime's relationship with Cersei is tragic. I didn't see it at all until season 2. She is the only woman he has ever loved, and she is talented at using her assets to get what she wants. Not to say Jaime is in any way blameless, but I do feel like he never stood a chance. He joined the King's Guard only to have Jaime become queen in a desperately unhappy marriage. I believe his life would have been dramatically different had he not had a twin.
I wish I could see Jaime growing into the man I would like him to become and that he should already be, but this is GRRM writing, so I think Jaime is in for a rocky road and a sad ending. So I am reduced to hoping he lives for a long time and dies well.
-- Edited by Black as Snow on Saturday 15th of September 2012 02:21:14 PM
Hmmm, this a tough one for me for me to comment, mostly because all I want to say is "you're in for one hell of a trip next season and I can't wait to hear your reactions then." But ok, I'll try and detach myself from the books and from the insight they provided on Jaime. Actually I can comment on the first half of season 1, because it was only after episode 3 or for that I started reading the books. As you probably know by now, the story is told through the eyes of certain characters. Not all characters have chapters of their own, and I don't think Jaime had one until the end of the second book. So in a way, I've watched Jaime in S1 from a non-reader perspective. First of all, show-Jaime in S1 is much more nuanced than his book counterpart, I've found. The first episode obviously shocked me. I knew there was something going on with Jaime and Cersei but seeing them together in the tower came out of the blue. However, there were things that caught my eye since the first two episodes or so, otherwise I would have dismissed the character entirely (cocky, good looking men? not my thing). He seemed to genuinly love Cersei, which I couldn't really say about her. Even when he pushed Bran, he didn't strike me as cruel, just easily manipulated - he didn't really react until Cersei said "he's seen us!". Also, it looked like he really cared for Tyrion, and I guess I found that endearing.
I loved his scene with Jon (I think that was an added scene for the show? Can't remember), because it spoked volumes about his character. My impression was that Jaime too started just as Jon did, in a way. Which is, he had no clue.
He seems to be taking his responsabilities in the Kingsguard seriously (Aerys aside lol), he doesn't hate it but he doesn't love it ether. I felt a bit of regret there, and I instantly thought Cersei must have had a hand in it, and that spoked volumes of Cersei as well (yes, I think she's a cruel, narcissistic, manipulative ***** and I hate her with a passion). His scene with Robert and Barristan sharing war stories furthered my impression that he's not a single-layer type of character. He talked with Barristan like a teenager talking to his idol, a man he obviously respects a great deal. When speaking of Aerys (both with Robert and with Ned, in separate scenes) there was no smugness there, and no guilt either. But clearly it was an event that stayed with him. I don't think he wants recognition for killing a tyrant, I think he just can't stand the judgement, because he is convinced he did the right thing. And this transpires in his scene with Catelyn at the end of S2 as well. I genuinely believe oaths mean something to him, even though he broke some and found his way around others. I loved how he askes "what about when the king slaughters the innocent?", because it shows he obviously gave it some thought, and that he did not kill Aerys in "cold" blood. Jaime's blood never seems to cool. He's impulsive, but not without morals. He seems to have a code of his own, and I think this shows even better when he's not around Cersei. I don't think Cersei would have had his reaction upon seeing those women hanged simply because "they lay with lions".
One thing I found interesting is that he doesn't seem at all concerned with Joffrey so far, or any of his other children for that matter. It's obvious he had no hand in raising Joffrey, so I guess we know who to blame for how well that one turned up.
His scene with Tywin (again, an added scene) in S1 was one of my favourites. He looked insecure, like he never wanted any of the responsabilities that came from being Tywin's elder son, but tried his best to preserve his family's reputation.
About his looks, I did not get the same impression, I don't think he ever valued his looks that much. I think his blade made him what he is (in more ways than one), and that's what defines him. His identity was built around his skill, and around Cersei.
Interesting observation about Loras besting him in the tourney. Then again, we've seen Loras at work, he knows his tricks. Hmm, if Brienne bested Loras, and Loras won against Jaime, I wonder who'd win in a fight between Jaime and Brienne. And NO, I don't know the answer, honestly, but I'd love to see it.
All I got was a rather class conscious pretty boy whose duty was to tag along with king Robert as part of the royal retinue. He demonstrated protocol and decorum well ,at the arrival to Winterfell and showed a bit of relaxed mood ( briefly ) with Tyrion and the prostitute.
beyond that story content was chiefly what did Bran see as they fucked at Winterfell & will he survive the murderous fall from the tower after being pushed ? /What did Jon Arryn see or tell before he was murdered ? Jaime smirking at Robert's closed door orgy session because Jaime is full aware that Cersei only fucks him that he knows of / demonstrates his arrogance to Jory Cassel (or as Cersi stated so eloquently to Joffrey " anyone who is not us is our enemy "/ and my favorite, a great scene with Tywin ( it was well done by Charles Dance ) originally described and spoken by Samwell Tarley's dad, and Baratheon bannerman. He does play a good hostage . Let's see, anything left out..........well, no.
Many fans do have a crush on Jaime and it was designed to be so, the show needs sex appeal and fan favorites as it's good for publicity and awareness of the show. Some viewers may ascertain that relations with his sister is a no no but doesn't real detract from his values or character. That Ned guy was mad at him for some reason, but he was just being a bad sport. To his credit, Nicolau Costa-Waldau is aan attractive and seasoned actor that excels in these type roles/
Cersei may be the epitome of cruelty but Jaime , full aware, made a conscious decision to be led by his .........tally wacker. Let's stick around to find out if he regrets his ............many actions. He may be redeemed yet.
Glad you brought up Jaime's scene with Jory, Wildseed. Another favorite of mine. If I recall correctly, they talk and share stories (great chance for some exposition) and Jaime's tone only shifts when Jory "begs his pardon". Jaime answers something along the lines of "why should I pardon you? Have your wronged me?", which I really liked. He's very conscious with words and empty courtesies. He only dismisses Jory because Jory wanted a letter delivered to Robert, and Robert was right behind him cheating on Cersei. Sure, he was blunt and arrogant, but that scene showed me once again that a) Jaime only feels comfortable around men like him - soldiers in essence. and b) that he does not look at the Starks or Stark men as enemies, or needs to act in their presence to keep up appearances.
Macha wrote:First of all, show-Jaime in S1 is much more nuanced than his book counterpart, I've found. The first episode obviously shocked me. I knew there was something going on with Jaime and Cersei but seeing them together in the tower came out of the blue. However, there were things that caught my eye since the first two episodes or so, otherwise I would have dismissed the character entirely (cocky, good looking men? not my thing). He seemed to genuinly love Cersei, which I couldn't really say about her. Even when he pushed Bran, he didn't strike me as cruel, just easily manipulated - he didn't really react until Cersei said "he's seen us!". Also, it looked like he really cared for Tyrion, and I guess I found that endearing.
I loved his scene with Jon (I think that was an added scene for the show? Can't remember), because it spoked volumes about his character. My impression was that Jaime too started just as Jon did, in a way. Which is, he had no clue.
He seems to be taking his responsabilities in the Kingsguard seriously (Aerys aside lol), he doesn't hate it but he doesn't love it ether. I felt a bit of regret there, and I instantly thought Cersei must have had a hand in it, and that spoked volumes of Cersei as well (yes, I think she's a cruel, narcissistic, manipulative ***** and I hate her with a passion). His scene with Robert and Barristan sharing war stories furthered my impression that he's not a single-layer type of character. He talked with Barristan like a teenager talking to his idol, a man he obviously respects a great deal. When speaking of Aerys (both with Robert and with Ned, in separate scenes) there was no smugness there, and no guilt either. But clearly it was an event that stayed with him. I don't think he wants recognition for killing a tyrant, I think he just can't stand the judgement, because he is convinced he did the right thing. And this transpires in his scene with Catelyn at the end of S2 as well. I genuinely believe oaths mean something to him, even though he broke some and found his way around others. I loved how he askes "what about when the king slaughters the innocent?", because it shows he obviously gave it some thought, and that he did not kill Aerys in "cold" blood. Jaime's blood never seems to cool. He's impulsive, but not without morals. He seems to have a code of his own, and I think this shows even better when he's not around Cersei. I don't think Cersei would have had his reaction upon seeing those women hanged simply because "they lay with lions".
One thing I found interesting is that he doesn't seem at all concerned with Joffrey so far, or any of his other children for that matter. It's obvious he had no hand in raising Joffrey, so I guess we know who to blame for how well that one turned up.
His scene with Tywin (again, an added scene) in S1 was one of my favourites. He looked insecure, like he never wanted any of the responsabilities that came from being Tywin's elder son, but tried his best to preserve his family's reputation.
About his looks, I did not get the same impression, I don't think he ever valued his looks that much. I think his blade made him what he is (in more ways than one), and that's what defines him. His identity was built around his skill, and around Cersei.
Agreed about the first episodes, Macha. I didn't see any significance in his scene with Jon, except I thought he was being a d-bag when he pulled Jon's arm closer as if to intimidate him. So your interpretation of that scene is different from mine.
I love your point about Jaime having his own code. He certainly seems to adhere to a code; it's just a different code from Ned Stark's. Ned Stark saw the world as black and white. Jaime is a moral relativist. I think what he believes what he says to Catlyn about oaths, to an extent. I think he navigates the world as honorably as he can within the given circumstances. I don't know that he thinks through his decisions. The folks here have convinced me that he is impulsive, which means he probably spends a lot of time rationalizing his misdeeds. But I don't think he's evil. Yes, he killed Jory, but it was a "clean" kill in battle. Of course, I wasn't overly attached to Jory (maybe a non-reader thing?), so I was surprised by how he died, but not upset about the death.
The scene with Tywin did show an interesting side of Jaime. Again, we go back to the life-altering decision he made in joining the King's Guard, and his father's disappointment. Jaime seems to acutely feel his inadequacy in his father's eyes, and you can tell how anxious he is to get out of that tent. I can only imagine how humiliating it must have been to be pierced with his father's disapproving gaze as he tried to learn to read. Not exactly a supportive environment in which to overcome your disability. I can't help but think of the first episode where Lord and Lady Stark watch Bran practicing archery...what a juxtaposition between two different worlds and world views.
I don't see your point about Joffrey. Nothing in the tv series has led me to believe that Jaime is disinterested in his children. The breakfast scene in Winterfell seemed like a warm and relaxed family enjoying time together. Jaime probably doesn't have any opportunities outside of such meals to spend time with his children, considering his circumstances. That being said, meal times are an incredible opportunity to teach your children your principles and values, which Jaime has certainly not succeeded in doing with Joffrey.
I don't know whether or not Jaime values his good looks. But he appears to be very capable of using them to charm others. If nothing else, they are a useful tool to him. And they make up for the lack of charm in his personality.
And Wildseed said that many viewers think: "That Ned guy was mad at him for some reason, but he was just being a bad sport."
I don't see it that way at all. It goes back to the personal code of these two men. To Ned, breaking your oath is inexcusable in all circumstances. His world is very black and white. Jaime feels that his actions were justified. And I agree with Jaime. My analogy is to Hitler and his crimes against humanity. I don't know if the mad king as as bad as that. But I do know that if one of Hitler's guards had stabbed him in the back and ended his reign of terror, he would be one of the great heroes of our time. We are not a society who values those who "just follow orders" when they have the ability to stop something that is wrong and evil. We value the opposite: the strength to take a stand and do whatever is in our power to change things for the better. And I have no reason to believe Jaime knew what the consequences of his actions would be, but he accepted the consequences. He's just lucky Stannis wasn't the person who decided his fate.
-- Edited by Black as Snow on Tuesday 18th of September 2012 01:33:37 AM
Glad you brought up Jaime's scene with Jory, Wildseed. Another favorite of mine. If I recall correctly, they talk and share stories (great chance for some exposition) and Jaime's tone only shifts when Jory "begs his pardon". Jaime answers something along the lines of "why should I pardon you? Have your wronged me?", which I really liked. He's very conscious with words and empty courtesies. He only dismisses Jory because Jory wanted a letter delivered to Robert, and Robert was right behind him cheating on Cersei. Sure, he was blunt and arrogant, but that scene showed me once again that a) Jaime only feels comfortable around men like him - soldiers in essence. and b) that he does not look at the Starks or Stark men as enemies, or needs to act in their presence to keep up appearances.
I really wished for a differnt type scene for poor Jaime here, as it did much to point out his arrogance
on screen and not hidden in the books. To the point, Jaime's refusal to Jory referred his dismissal of
Ned as hand of king. He actually stated that he works for the king not be confused as message boy
delivering notes from Eddard Stark. Jory , however being the the kind soul that he is , pointed out to
Jaime that they fought at arms together with pointing out the battle in question. This relaxed Jaime
for a second and removed his mask of snobbishness towards ( anyone who isn't a Lannister persona)
and responded in courtesy of the reference. That quickly changed when Jory, seeing it inopportune
to disturbing the king considered it a reasonable request to forward it through a guard whom place was
to remain at that location and very likely to see king Robert before Jory would.
There are so many upcoming scenes of Jaime and mitigating truths that will influence our perspectives
of him. Why defend these lowly acts ? These do not speak well of him as GRRM had motive to portray him
,a prick at his juncture. As Black as Snow and other new readers will learn, there is always complexity to
ASOIAF characters. Soon or later for some, we will begin to understand in whole and empathize for
some of their actions. Right now Jaime Lannister is a well to do prick whose actions and past paint a
unflattering point of view. Jaime is not rotten to the core but is as complex as GRRM forces us to accept.
As Seasons three and four deepen our knowledge for him ( and other GoT characters ) as he travels
with Brienne, we will begin to accept events as they evolve and Jaime no longer hides behind his
elevated status as arrogant rich boy . Irronically Jaime Lannister mentions onscreen that for the one
honorable thing he did, everyone hates him for it . While several character arcs continue to develop,
I hope the series do well in portraying their ongoing struggle their personal values and political necessity.
The series includes matters of the heart and true love as well, perhaps these equal parts sum of why
GoT is a intriquing story to watch unfold onscreen.
"He's just lucky Stannis wasn't the person who decided his fate."
You can say that again, Black.
ETA: I've enjoyed very much reading everyone's take on Jaime, one of my favourite characters. I'd love to add my , but I fear my comments would be unconsciously marred with spoiler opinions. So I'll hold off a little longer, but thanks for bringing up such an interesting discussion.
-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 18th of September 2012 06:58:51 AM
__________________
“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
GRRM will deliver more in the books to chew on as Jaime and Brienne travel on a separate journey. Since I have the benefits of the previous books and insights, I have learned much as Jaime reflects on his life. At this point from a GoT perspective, there is much more to experience. I am eager to watch these and other characters come to life onscreen.
I have no doubt that Ned and Robert shared the same mistrust of Jaime, it did convey well onscreen. However Ned was a bit taken aback at the events ( well that and other events regarding Jaime ) that newly christened king Robert was not aware. When Ned confronted Robert, his friend the king knew that politics is not Ned's strong suit. After all, pardons and stays of execution were deemed reasonable in order to bring compromise and peace, as well as to keep your enemies close where you could see them. Robert was wise in doing so, though not without fault, that peace lasted 15 years.
I agree with Tir Airgid's words, the consideration would have been naught had Stannis found him.
I generally see two types of characters on Game of Thrones: long-range and short-range. The short range characters are generally the folks involved in the war...those who are between Winterfell and Storm's End. Their storyline evolves rapidly and every one of them is very much expendable. The other characters are in a much more long-range story. They didn't do much in season 2. Their storylines need time to evolve, as do the primary "long-range" characters, Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen. I feel like they're safe from getting killed because they are an important part of a much larger story. In contrast, their companions are just as expendable as the short-range characters. Some other characters feel like they might be in it for the long haul, but I wouldn't bet on any of them even if I desperately want them to make it.
There's only one character who doesn't fit into my neat little theory: Melisandre. Yes, she's in the middle of the war for the Iron Throne, but she also seems to be above it. She's part of a bigger picture, and I don't know to what extent we'll learn about her and her motivations in season 3. She's certainly not going to die yet. But what is she going to do? Where does she fit into the events that are unfolding more slowly in the North and in Essos? I haven't figured it out yet, and I don't know if I will. In any case, she is one of the great enigmas on GoT. I don't know that I have a point to make, but I wanted to throw out there that the red lady is perplexing and deserves close analysis in season 3.
-- Edited by Black as Snow on Friday 21st of September 2012 12:33:11 AM
WildSeed's post about her friend got me thinking about Ned Stark. I'm sad that any woman is so jaded that she would walk away from a Ned Stark and choose a Tywin Lannister instead. She must have a thing for bad boys. And she makes some legitimate points. No offense to your friend, WildSeed, but I have an entirely different view of Ned Stark.
I've already told you how shocked I was when Ned died. I'm sure we all were. And after season 1, I angrily wondered whether Ned Stark was just a plot device, whose sole purpose was to demonstrate that honor, integrity and principles, which will ensure you come out on top in most stories, will get you killed in the game of thrones. I've come to the conclusion that he was much more than that.
I don't think Ned Stark was naive. He knew he wasn't well suited for playing the game, but he felt honor-bound to go where angels fear to tread. He was certainly unwilling to compromise his honor and his principles to play the game, regardless of the consequences. He is one end of a spectrum and Cersei is the other. Jon Snow was correct that Ned Stark would do what was right in whatever situation presented itself, regardless of personal cost. I miss Ned Stark tremendously, but his ghost, the example that he set and what he stood for, hang over everything that has happened and will happen in Westeros since his death.
The choices that are faced by those rare souls who live by principle and honor are incredibly difficult. Such people rarely get ahead precisely because of the Cerseis of the world and because of an unwillingness to pay the price that comes with compromise. It's a simple matter for an intelligent and charismatic man to get ahead if he's willing to lie, to grovel and to play the game. Maester Aemon was right that such a man is rare, indeed.
My own personal Ned Stark is the reason I'm not married right now. Because once you have someone like that in your life, you can't settle for anything less, even when you're tempted to. The Tywin Lannisters of the world are the easy choice by comparison. But that "Ned Stark" ghost is always there, looking over your shoulder, and you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror.
WildSeed, I'm sorry your friend never had a Ned Stark to show her that the principles and integrity in a man are worth the price. My Ned Stark is no longer himself. But in those moments when I hear Ned Stark speaking with my father's voice, I give him a hug and tell him how I missed him. Men like Ned Stark should never be discounted. They should be treasured for the rare and exceptional people they are. Both this world and Westeros need as many such men as it can find.
WildSeed's post about her friend got me thinking about Ned Stark. I'm sad that any woman is so jaded that she would walk away from a Ned Stark and choose a Tywin Lannister instead. She must have a thing for bad boys. And she makes some legitimate points. No offense to your friend, WildSeed, but I have an entirely different view of Ned Stark.
I've already told you how shocked I was when Ned died. I'm sure we all were. And after season 1, I angrily wondered whether Ned Stark was just a plot device, whose sole purpose was to demonstrate that honor, integrity and principles, which will ensure you come out on top in most stories, will get you killed in the game of thrones. I've come to the conclusion that he was much more than that.
I don't think Ned Stark was naive. He knew he wasn't well suited for playing the game, but he felt honor-bound to go where angels fear to tread. He was certainly unwilling to compromise his honor and his principles to play the game, regardless of the consequences. He is one end of a spectrum and Cersei is the other. Jon Snow was correct that Ned Stark would do what was right in whatever situation presented itself, regardless of personal cost. I miss Ned Stark tremendously, but his ghost, the example that he set and what he stood for, hang over everything that has happened and will happen in Westeros since his death.
The choices that are faced by those rare souls who live by principle and honor are incredibly difficult. Such people rarely get ahead precisely because of the Cerseis of the world and because of an unwillingness to pay the price that comes with compromise. It's a simple matter for an intelligent and charismatic man to get ahead if he's willing to lie, to grovel and to play the game. Maester Aemon was right that such a man is rare, indeed.
My own personal Ned Stark is the reason I'm not married right now. Because once you have someone like that in your life, you can't settle for anything less, even when you're tempted to. The Tywin Lannisters of the world are the easy choice by comparison. But that "Ned Stark" ghost is always there, looking over your shoulder, and you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror.
WildSeed, I'm sorry your friend never had a Ned Stark to show her that the principles and integrity in a man are worth the price. My Ned Stark is no longer himself. But in those moments when I hear Ned Stark speaking with my father's voice, I give him a hug and tell him how I missed him. Men like Ned Stark should never be discounted. They should be treasured for the rare and exceptional people they are. Both this world and Westeros need as many such men as it can find.
I´m tired and I should be sleeping but this was beautiful BaS. Beautiful. Thanks chick.
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
There's only one character who doesn't fit into my neat little theory: Melisandre. Yes, she's in the middle of the war for the Iron Throne, but she also seems to be above it. She's part of a bigger picture, and I don't know to what extent we'll learn about her and her motivations in season 3.
In a way, book readers are right up there with you on this. She's an interesting character because somehow the more you know about her, the more you can't make sense of it. And I must say, as with other characters, the show has managed to make them even more nuanced. As always, you are very intuitve. I too feel that she's part of a bigger picture, which is funny in a way, since she's "paired" with a character who's doom seems imminent.
PS: I loved your post about the "Ned"s in our life.
@Black. What you wrote is very moving. Thanks for sharing.
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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
As I've been watching Season 2 on DVD, I've been contemplating all of the people in North-South transit who Arya and her merry band could run into. Of course, my knowledge of Westerosi geography is somewhat limited, but there are so many interesting possibilities. Of those, I think a showdown between Arya and Brienne over Arya's right to kill Jaime would be the most entertaining. Not that I want anything to happen to my favorite man candy...
There are other possibilities too. Like the Hound...of course, that would only be really fun if Sansa had accompanied him north. Can you imagine a second scene, much like the first between Sansa, Arya and Joffrey, where Sansa is pleading and screaming for the fighting to stop. LOL. But I guess we won't be seeing that. I can imagine a scene where the Hound tells Arya that everyone's a killer and blah, blah, blah. That doesn't do anything for me.
Of course, Arya could run into Robb and/or his forces, Nymeria...there's no telling. And of course, they'll be introducing a boatload of new characters this season, which creates a number of possibilities that I can't even begin to imagine.
So yeah, I'm thinking Arya could have some great scenes this season. And if we get to see Gendry's abs again, so much the better. lol.
I'm absolutely dying to find out what happened at Winterfell for multiple reasons - one being that I've become really attached to Theon's character for some reason. (I know, right? Everyone looks at me funny when I say that!) Maybe it was Alfie Allen's performance, but I was really sold on his desperation, and being trapped between two worlds and never belonging to either. He did some awful things, but he's just too pitiful to hate, really. He ended up being really sympathetic towards the end, for me anyway. Hopefully he's not just dead, or he doesn't get sent south to Robb to get executed.
I suppose it's too much to hope that he's been taken back to the Iron Islands, where Yara can smack some sense in him and they can cast off the influence of their horrible father and go off and be awesome together. (Preferably joining up again with Robb in the process! That seems even less likely, though.)
I figured the Iron born would've turned him over to the northmen in a heartbeat, but the state of Winterfell is just so weird. If they were hoping for amnesty, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have sacked it like that - but the only other option would be a battle taking place, which is unlikely for the same reason and the disparity in numbers, or the northmen themselves burning it. This is really the most intriguing mystery to me right now.
The other is what's going to happen to poor Sansa this season. She's probably tied with Arya as my favorite character, and she's in such a precarious position right now even if everything seems safe on the surface. Her 'savior' is a manipulative creeper and I'm not sure if he's better or worse for her than Joffrey or Cersei in the end, given his repeatedly comparing her to Catelyn who he's still holding this major obsessive torch for. I'd like to think that Shae will go all mama bear and not let Littlecreeper do too much creepin', but I'm worried about her too after Tywin's ominous threat to Tyrion about executing his next whore, or something like that. Hopefully he's able to get her to her mother, even if he's just doing it in the end to get favor with Lady Stark.
edit: whoops looks like I've been spelling some characters' names wrong, fixed
-- Edited by Anneliese on Sunday 7th of April 2013 08:35:43 AM
I really have no idea about Stannis! He seems pretty licked, and Melisandra is showing that she has a lot of influence over him right now. I like Stannis, but it was mainly Davos that humanized him in my eyes and with him treating the 'ol boy the way he is now it's getting harder to root for him! If things keep going the way they're going I think he and Melly are going to get deeper and deeper into the twisted magic stuff - maybe she'll even do the whole "evil fantasy vizier" thing and use Stannis as a puppet, gradually increasing her control over him.
Robb's really in a rough position right now, between Theon's betrayal, Jaime's release, and now his shotgun marriage to Talisa. He's either going to have to keep it quiet and go though with his bargain with 'ol Filch (sorry I forgot his name haha and it's been a whole season I think) or work on repairing his relationship with him. If that's what happens, he's probably going to get unreasonable and make demands that will further isolate Robb's northmen or even affect his relationship with his mother's family - they're from the same area as Filch right?
My totally off-the-wall gamble is that since Talisa is from way outside of the seven kingdoms (I don't remember where exactly? possibly even where Danarys is now) and Danarys' whole Thing is that she's way outside the seven kingdoms too, Talisa or her family is going to be the way that those two meet up and she helps turn the tides of the war. That would be a little 'convenient' though.
-- Edited by Anneliese on Sunday 7th of April 2013 05:33:23 PM
I found what happened at Winterfell confusing too. I didn't understand why it was necessary for Osha and the crew to leave. I didn't understand how extensive the damage was or how it happened. I don't know if the show did a bad job of depicting what happened or if they were purposely vague. But I'm looking forward to the explantion tonight!
I like Theon too. He's like a little lost puppydog, and he's weak enough that it interferes with his decision-making tremendously. He wants acceptance so badly. I really got to like him the second season, regardless of his despicable actions. And I can't wait to see what's in store for him. At the end of season 2, I wasn't clear whether his men knocked him out to get him to go quietly and escaped using the tunnels the Maester mentioned or whether they turned him over and made their escape according to the terms Robb offered. I'm pretty sure I've figured out the answer, so we'll see whether I'm right or not.
As for Sansa, I just about died at the thought of her in Little Finger's clutches. I would have hoped she learned a lesson from what happened to her father when he trusted LF. Then again, it's entirely possible that Sansa doesn't know the details of what happened and who betrayed her father. I honestly hadn't thought about LF turning Sansa over to Catelyn unmolested. I'm not sure whether LF finally accepts that Catelyn is a lost cause or not. I would think that she would see the return of Sansa as part of her deal with the Lannisters, and wouldn't be particularly grateful to Baelish.
I love little Arya, and I can't wait to see what the season holds in store for her. I really don't have the same attachment to Sansa. I suppose it's because she was such a brat the first season. I'm hoping she'll grow on me as she becomes more savvy and learns to be proactive to ensure her own well-being. Assuming that ever happens...
I'm so excited for tonight's episode! So maybe I'll post something in that thread to kick things off.
It's hard as a non-book reader to get a feel for distances in Westeros. As far as I can tell, Jaime and Brienne and Robb with his army are all headed south, and Arya and the Hound are headed north. So what are the chances of various combinations of these folks meeting up? Probably slim to none for right now, but hopefully at some point this season.... And Nymeria is somewhere in the area that these folks are passing through, so maybe Arya will get her direwolf back.
Oooh, good point - I forgot about the tunnels!! There's still hope for 'ol Theon Hornblowersbane after all.
I really really want things to end well for him, and maybe they can if his sister's involved, like I mentioned. She's awesome, and could be a good influence. But then, as rad as she is she seems pretty "traditionalist" too even if she expressed concern for him last season. He's still torn between these two sides and he's only made it worse through his actions. Theon: the Charlie Browniest GoT character.
I'm really intrigued by where Sansa's character is going after seeing the trailer for today's episode with Marjorie and her mother (or grandmother? the Diana Rigg character) grilling her. The queen-to-be had already proven herself to be an extremely clever gal, I almost hope she takes a personal interest in Sansa, takes her under her wing, and teaches her how to thrive, instead of just treading water - even if it's just because Sansa seems useful or whatever. Littlefinger is just the worst, I'm putting my hopes in Marjorie for Sansa's ultimate well being. She seems like she'd be a great mentor. Time will tell exactly how self-serving and ambitious she really is, but if all her schemes involve giving aide to war orphans and the like I think she's the kind of evil overlord I can get behind.
Plus I could watch a whole hour of passive aggressive royal dinner parties, with 80% of what's being said flying right over Joffrey's head. I love how it took him a couple of seconds to remember the word "charity"; that, or he was hesitating like it was a curse word or something. (and her dresses are already some of the most gorgeous! That one with the long scarf that she wore while visiting with the orphans owns.) She just might be strutting and sideways-grinning her way to joing my other favorite characters.
Poor Sansa was just so ill-equipped to deal with the cutthroat politics of King's Landing, she was naive and idealistic, and had been brought up with the assumption that everyone is as honorable as her father and life is just like it is in the ~songs~. She could be a force to be reckoned with if she finds the confidence to take initiative for herself, but since she's really just a hostage at the moment I can't see her getting there on her own, which is why I'm putting so much hope in the Tyrell ladies. Arya really owns obviously but I honestly don't think she would have survived in King's Landing as Sansa has, and likewise I don't think Sansa could survive in Arya's conditions.
You guys remind me of when I saw season 1, not read the books yet. I speculated some things and they actually came through, I was delighted when I guessed right. You guys are very insightful. What do you guys think Stannis might be up next? And what do you think Robb should do now that the Tyrells and Lannisters have joined ?
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Yikes, Stannis is a tough one. As I said in my episode 1 review, I think what's coming is a power struggle between Davos and Melisandre. Stannis seems pretty out of it, but one scene can be deceiving. It could be that when he said so half-heartedly "I am fighting," he meant it. Despite what we discussed on that thread, I see no reason to assume he's truly down and out. He had 100,000 men (if I recall correctly) prior to the Battle of Blackwater. Did he pile all of those men into boats? How many of the forces that he took with him actually died? It's entirely possible that a sizable contingent of Stannis' army was able to retreat or wasn't at the battle. So I think it's premature to count Stannis out yet. I know we discussed this in last week's thread, so I won't talk about it more here.
If his entire army has been slaughtered or deserted, he's in a tough position. I don't see how he attracts new followers in Westeros, especially because he lacks resources (money, charisma, etc.) that a military force needs. And Stannis will not join forces with Robb. So I don't know what options he has other than using Melisandre's magic to gain advantage or by using his limited manpower to sabotage his enemies and fight a guerilla-style war.
As for Robb, again we run into the discussion in the episode 1 thread about what the status of his army is. Last I knew, he was successfully fighting the Lannisters, and the Lannisters have turned their attention to King's Landing and Stannis' forces. In the meantime, the remaining Lannisters forces outside KL are trying to play games and wear down Robb's forces. I think Robb has two options. He could point his forces towards Casterly Rock, and hit where it hurts. But I think the smarter course of action is to pull back his forces to The Neck, where his smaller numbers may have a strategic advantage. Let the Lannisters continue about their business in the south, and keep them out of the north to the extent possible until winter sets in. He can furlough men to harvest their crops and get ready for winter. Once winter starts in earnest, I doubt the southerners will be coming north for some time. But that's just me...Robb wouldn't do that.
Do you watch the previews for the next episode, BaS? If not I'll spoiler it and you can just skip it, but looks like we've got
Spoiler
Daenarys buying those slaves, Theon escaping captivity, Stannis and Melisandra gettin' creepy again, and Brienne in some big trouble.(that headbutt, damn!!) Looks amazing.
Unfortunately I can't really join in on the Night's Watch/John Snow speculation train anymore because I think my roommate let a big spoiler slip, haha.
With Baristan on Dany's side now, I have to wonder how he's going to feel about the whole slave business going on. It seems like he'd disapprove a lot, and you almost get the feeling that Jorah is urging Daenarys into it as a way of weirdly justifying his own actions. "see Khaleesi, what's a couple of poachers when you're buying thousands of dudes groomed from childhood to be the perfect murderers?" It doesn't really seem to suit her character either, from what we've seen from her interactions with her own tribe. Also Baristan totally knows that Jorah was playing a spy for most of the first season since he was a member of Robert's Guard then, right? I wonder if he'll say anything. On one hand he seems too classy to sell someone out like that, but on the other he's too classy not to say something.
I can't wait for Theon to go all Prison Break!! Yara is awesome. Plus she has good taste; if you gotta send someone to do the work for you, send Iwan Rheon. I really, really like to think that they'll join forces to supplant their father, maybe lend their ships to someone else's cause - Stannis? He's pretty down-and-out. Robb definitely wouldn't take their help even if they offered it on a golden platter. Maybe Yara will just take her father's place, actually. I like to think Theon's learned a thing or two about over-reaching his bounds from all this, so there won't be too much bickering with his sister over leadership this time. (I'm still hoping that Theon's with the ironmen partially because of what that means for Robb otherwise! Bolton seems like one of, if not the most competent ally he has. I don't want to think that he's gettin' shifty.)
The group that Arya's bumped into seem interesting, definitely very Robin Hood-like and extremely charming. I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes - I mean, they just let her leave but then the Hound happened. Maybe she'll stay with them just for a chance at the Hound, to get him crossed off that little list of hers. I kind of hope she doesn't just kill him, though, at least not before we learn more about him. Even with all the terrible stuff he's done there's something weirdly intriguing about him; if nothing else, at least he's not hypocritical. He doesn't really make excuses for his actions, and probably has more in common with Arya than she'd like to admit. (I mean, she's angry enough to keep a "Dudes I Want To Die" list and wants to learn to murder better. C'mon.)
Sorry, Anneliese, I don't watch previews. It gives too much away! I don't even like the "Previously on GoT" recaps at the beginning of episodes 301 and 302. I really like surprises!
Share your Ponderings of the Series " Game of Thrones " . 
So does "blood of the dragon" not relate to blood in the kinship sense? Does the BotD skip certain Targerians? Should Maester Aemon be in charge of burning all zombies, or is he in danger of bursting into flames just like the other Nights Watchmen? 
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(
, but I fear my comments would be unconsciously marred with spoiler opinions. So I'll hold off a little longer, but thanks for bringing up such an interesting discussion. 
I´m tired and I should be sleeping but this was beautiful BaS. Beautiful. Thanks chick.
(Preferably joining up again with Robb in the process! That seems even less likely, though.)
(and her dresses are already some of the most gorgeous! That one with the long scarf that she wore while visiting with the orphans owns.) She just might be strutting and sideways-grinning her way to joing my other favorite characters.
I really, really like to think that they'll join forces to supplant their father, maybe lend their ships to someone else's cause - Stannis? He's pretty down-and-out. Robb definitely wouldn't take their help even if they offered it on a golden platter. Maybe Yara will just take her father's place, actually. I like to think Theon's learned a thing or two about over-reaching his bounds from all this, so there won't be too much bickering with his sister over leadership this time. (I'm still hoping that Theon's with the ironmen partially because of what that means for Robb otherwise! Bolton seems like one of, if not the most competent ally he has. I don't want to think that he's gettin' shifty.)