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Topic: Jaime Vs Ned...The Duel

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Macha
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Jaime Vs Ned...The Duel
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Sorry Ned fans, my money's on Jaime also. I guess we'll never know though, will we? 

20800828.jpg



-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 4th of September 2012 08:06:59 AM

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Lyanna Stark
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I believe Ned would have tried to wound Jaime but not necessarily kill him, which is what I thought was Jaime's aim as well.  Neither wanted to kill the other and start a war.  However, my gold dragons would have been on Ned wounding Jaime and Jaime riding off saying the same thing about his brother, Tyrion.  As said, we'll never know.  It's only speculation.



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Tuesday 4th of September 2012 08:22:34 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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One of my favorite scenes in the Tv show, which I was suprised was quite different in the book, was the Ned Vs Jaime swordfight.

I have never seen this discussed ( other than horrible youtube comment threads), who would've won if the Lannister guard hadn't stabbed Ned's leg?

I think it could go a bunch of ways, Ned is more experienced, while Jaime is stronger.

Jaime is impulsive and can easily be goaded, while Ned is more patient and tactical ( in battle at least).

I think the clip gives a few clues, at 2:05 as Ned's blade swings quite close to Jaime's face he gives a pleasantly surprised look, as if he thinks "Ha, this old goat has a few tricks up his sleeve". And at 2:24 Jaime seems to think "Hmm, this one is stronger than he looks".

I think had the duel gone on, Jaime's youth might have swung things his way, or not. wink

What do you guys think?



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Aegon the Conqueror
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I personally believe NEd would have won. Take into accounts Barristan Selmy's word, "you are to modest, I've seen you cut down a dozen great knight." Jaime's face to me said, "ok shit this guy can take me, I never thought he was capable!"
Plus remember Jaime never actually fought in a war up till then, mostly just tourney's and the battle against the Outlaw Brotherhood when he was 16.
This is an example of a series moment being so much better than the book counterpart!

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Tir Airgid
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I think Jamie would have won, but would not have left the fight unscathed. But I don't know... it's quite a close call

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WildSeed
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I believe Eddard would win period

While I do not believe Jaime met his match, he certainly brought on the emotional rage as a man disrespected,
and that's a terrible if tricky sword fight to gage. Twenty seconds on TV was likely twenty minutes in real time
where a younger Jaime underpaced by an older man would have scored enough points and surely a win. With
a stronger, seasoned warrior such as Ned whom held his ground in a surprise attack. Eddard had a lot on his
mind and worried senseless about his family and the realm. Enter younger, well rested singular minded Jaime
in a fit of rage defending his family honour ( or embarrassment ) and supported by a core of Lannister men ! A
bloated ego usually loses but Jaime does possess skill so Ned would likely suffer a wound or cut as Black
as Snow suggested. Yet the images above added with the mitigating facts give Ned the decided victory
if it were to play without interference. I doubt too that the blow Eddard would sustain would likely be one
as the guard struck from behind.

Still, rage is a terrible , unpredictable thing to come up against during a fight or battle. It also tends to highlight
weak character and control. The unpredictable nature of it put both at risk. Ironically during battles, rage was
encouraged as to strike fear or a lucky blow to foes where precision was not always called for .

During duels and tests of strength, combat was arranged ( some last minute ) with matched weaponry ( it was
assumed respect for what each brought as skill to the match, it did  not have to be matched physical skill ). At all
times a code of honour ( should be ) followed and end at first blood or wound. Duels were practised by all
males even in a segmented society. It was frowned upon for someone to be stabbed or shot from behind
(except by raging fools or criminals). Perhaps Tywin had taught that to Jaime or he learned it in the Kingsguard.
His anger at the guard was at least done right.

I've always been turned on by hand to hand combat be it Euro sword play or wrestling as the Romans did. If it
wasn't to the death the experience was awesome to behold from a female point of view. That IMO is another
beauty of force and skill that our men of the world possess.

Sorry to get all preachy, I really enjoy this stuff.



-- Edited by WildSeed on Thursday 6th of September 2012 02:18:29 AM

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Black as Snow
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I thought Ned would win, but not uninjured. He could have taken a serious wound, but he has patience and experience on his side. Jaime thought it would be a fun, lighthearted murder, and he quickly realized he had met his match. I think back on the exchange between Ned and Jaime in the first episode, as well as the comment that Ser Loras had beaten Jaime in a tournament. So it's quite possible that Jaime is slowing down a little with age, but he still thinks he's Billy Badass. And it looks like now he's been shown up by Brienne too!



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MrsHghar
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Ned Stark FTW. It is known.

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Aegon the Conqueror
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WildSeed wrote:



I've always been turned on by hand to hand combat be it Euro sword play or wrestling as the Romans did. If it
wasn't to the death the experience was awesome to behold from a female point of view. That IMO is another
beauty of force and skill that our men of the world possess.


-- Edited by WildSeed on Thursday 6th of September 2012 02:18:29 AM

 You would love Rugby! All out brawling, hidden fist punches, bone crunching tackles, manu ah manu!



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Tir Airgid
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WildSeed wrote:

I've always been turned on by hand to hand combat be it Euro sword play or wrestling as the Romans did. If it
wasn't to the death the experience was awesome to behold from a female point of view. That IMO is another
beauty of force and skill that our men of the world possess.

I also get turned on by skillful fencers. I find that so terribly sexy in a man! But sword skill is not a man's preserve: I'm a fencer (foil)! But I solemnly swear that when I fence I do not look at male-opponents that way. Oh, no. I'd never.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmj3nmhkZdV-yw3IW7zze-793MgKd2B21Af-3P9PRjHRsuDFc-og&t=1



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Lyanna Stark
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Tir Airgid wrote:
WildSeed wrote:

I've always been turned on by hand to hand combat be it Euro sword play or wrestling as the Romans did. If it
wasn't to the death the experience was awesome to behold from a female point of view. That IMO is another
beauty of force and skill that our men of the world possess.

I also get turned on by skillful fencers. I find that so terribly sexy in a man! But sword skill is not a man's preserve: I'm a fencer (foil)! But I solemnly swear that when I fence I do not look at male-opponents that way. Oh, no. I'd never.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmj3nmhkZdV-yw3IW7zze-793MgKd2B21Af-3P9PRjHRsuDFc-og&t=1

 Tir, a fencer! How cool is that! Did you watch it in the olympics a few weeks ago?



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Macha
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I absolutely love fencing, was glued to the screen! Always said that if I ever have a son, it's fencing for him.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Tir Airgid wrote:

I also get turned on by skillful fencers. I find that so terribly sexy in a man! But sword skill is not a man's preserve: I'm a fencer (foil)! But I solemnly swear that when I fence I do not look at male-opponents that way. Oh, no. I'd never.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmj3nmhkZdV-yw3IW7zze-793MgKd2B21Af-3P9PRjHRsuDFc-og&t=1

 I bet you got a LOT of mileage from those Syrio Forell scenes huh?



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Tir Airgid
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Lyanna Stark wrote:
 Tir, a fencer! How cool is that! Did you watch it in the olympics a few weeks ago?

 OF COURSE! Wouldn't miss a second of any olympic discipline, male or female. Plus, big fan of Valentina Vezzali here. smile



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Tir Airgid
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
 I bet you got a LOT of mileage from those Syrio Forell scenes huh?

Oh, man, I melted! His last stand was amazeballs! And I think Maisie's got potential.

To me, stage fighting when done well is like Martin's description of fantasy. Bright and beautiful and full of strong flavours, ethereal sounds and bright colours... the stuff dreams and desires are made of.



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WildSeed
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I meant as a spectator I'd admire physical prowess of a male to male match.

As an opponent however, and as Tir Aigid mentioned, it's all about respect for your opponent and skill.
Precisely what I referenced about Jaime and Eddard's Duel.

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Rygar
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Jaime definitely realizes that Ned is a threat just prior to the spear. Jaime is the favorite but I have to believe that Ned would not have fought him one on one if he didn't think he could beat him. Why would Ned risk his life when his daughters were still in KL and his wife captured Tyrion? Ned would not do something rash as to risk the lives of his daughters. Ned would have won. He had more on the line to lose. That can put a man over the top in those situations.

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Lyanna Stark
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Rygar wrote:

Jaime definitely realizes that Ned is a threat just prior to the spear. Jaime is the favorite but I have to believe that Ned would not have fought him one on one if he didn't think he could beat him. Why would Ned risk his life when his daughters were still in KL and his wife captured Tyrion? Ned would not do something rash as to risk the lives of his daughters. Ned would have won. He had more on the line to lose. That can put a man over the top in those situations.

 Well said Rygar, Ned is a badass, it is known!



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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I absolutely LOVED this scene! Not only was well acted but the music was perfectly chosen and so was the choreography (to my untrained eye it was beautiful). Even with the books read I rooted for Ned! and I'm half Lannister. But Jaime had more stamina from the looks of it. Ned seemed to tire for a bit there and the duel was rather balanced in swings and close shaves. So whoever lasted longer would have won in my opinion. So hypothetically speaking, my money would have been on Jaime.

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Rygar
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No way woman. See my point above. Jaime was worried of losing.

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Al Swearengen
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Book Jaime beats Ned 100/100

TV Jaime still beats Ned cause Sean Bean always dies on screen.



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Rygar
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I'm not sure.  We didn't get a sense if Neds swordsmanship.  Only that he would have died at the hands of Arthur Dayne if not for Howland.  I dont think Jaime could be AD singlehandedly. 



-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 10th of February 2014 04:55:25 PM

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Lyanna Stark
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I don't remember book Jaime "dominating" Ned. The stinking horse falls on Ned's leg and breaks it, which sucks. At least D&D gave him a bit of dignity and had another guard stab him in the leg. Martin was mean to Ned on that account, and many others

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Al Swearengen
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Didn't Selmy proclaim Jaime one of the most naturally gifted swordsmen he'd ever seen?



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Rygar
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Not sure Al.

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TormundsWoman
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Rygar wrote:

No way woman. See my point above. Jaime was worried of losing.

 Yes way! I see your point and I raise you:

1. Ned swung first. He was COLD PISSED because Jamie put the knife through his friends eye and the blade in his belly. Look at his face when he watches Jaime right after he's done defending himself against Jamie's men. That's for your "Ned would not do something rash as to risk the lives of his daughters."

2. Ned THINKS he can win. And he's not the man to back down (as proven by his character development so far: standing up against Robert, taking Tyrion's capture on him and many other facts). That does not make it true. That's for your "Ned would not have fought him one on one if he didn't think he could beat him." Emphasis on think.

3. 2:26 Ned looks really tired. I saw two drops of sweat there...

Are we having discussions?! Don won't like that HAHA. 



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 10th of February 2014 06:17:19 PM



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 10th of February 2014 06:17:47 PM

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DonalNoyesArm
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We forgot to add this to the discussion, Ned is honorable and it got him killed in the end.
Jaime will use all tools at his disposal, including fighting dirty.

If Ned swung first what is not to say he would have gotten the blade in the eye first?

Then again we can say that Jaime respects Ned, Jory was an annoyance and he disposed of him quickly to get to the meat of the showdown with Ned.



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Al Swearengen
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I think the better question is who would triumph between Drogo and Brienne.



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TormundsWoman
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

We forgot to add this to the discussion, Ned is honorable and it got him killed in the end.
Jaime will use all tools at his disposal, including fighting dirty.

 That is an excellent point! Plus I was just thinking that Ned hasn't really fought in a long time. What duels, what real fight would the Lord of Winterfell have had since the Rebellion? Jamie on the other hand had training every day, fought in tournament. Wielding that sword was his job description. There, I practically convinced my own self that Jaime would have won!



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Rygar
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Ned was toe to toe with Artie Dayne and toe to toe with Jaime. Who lost to a woman. No contest.

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Um... Men lose to women all the time. I could so give examples but won't fall to that level. (Equality is a bitch Rygar! Guess who's a feminist now?! LOL)

Besides, in ASoIaF universe that is not just any woman either. That is Brienne of Tarth a true knight. Also Jaime lost after being in chains, not fed properly and without training for a long time. Not exactly a fair fight there.

"Ned was toe to toe with Artie Dayne" is hilarious.

That's Ser Arthur Dayne to you, the Sword of the Morning! (which BTW was set upon when having Ned to his mercy by Howland Reed. Probably attacked cowardly from the back- speculation works both ways, does it not? teehee . And now I hate myself because I love the cragnonman for coming to Ned's aid.)



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Rygar
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Sorry I meant Artie Lang.

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Al Swearengen
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TormundsWoman wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

We forgot to add this to the discussion, Ned is honorable and it got him killed in the end.
Jaime will use all tools at his disposal, including fighting dirty.

 That is an excellent point! Plus I was just thinking that Ned hasn't really fought in a long time. What duels, what real fight would the Lord of Winterfell have had since the Rebellion? Jamie on the other hand had training every day, fought in tournament. Wielding that sword was his job description. There, I practically convinced my own self that Jaime would have won!

 I highly doubt Ned was just sitting around letting his skills erode, he's not Robert.



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Macha
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In GRRM's own words, Boromir beats Ned, and Jaime beats Aragorn. So I guess that covers it, unless of course we want to argue if the show played it differently :lolnope: . Or if Boromir would win over Aragorn, but you're on your own with that. 



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Rygar
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Boromir would kick Neds ass fifty times over. How many piercings did he have and still killed muthafuckers? Ned had one and gave up.  And Ned would fuck Jaime up.  Meaning Boromir vs Jaime would be a silly affair. 



-- Edited by Rygar on Saturday 22nd of February 2014 12:36:19 PM



-- Edited by Rygar on Saturday 22nd of February 2014 12:38:17 PM

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Macha wrote:

In GRRM's own words, Boromir beats Ned, and Jaime beats Aragorn. So I guess that covers it, unless of course we want to argue if the show played it differently :lolnope: . Or if Boromir would win over Aragorn, but you're on your own with that. 

 Their book versions maybe, Aragorn was at Helms Deep and Minas Tirith, cutting down entire orc and supernatural armies and Jaimie has done what? Killed a few bandits? 

Lol I see this is not going anywhere! teehee



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Macha
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Rygar wrote:

And when does GRRM know anything? Boromir would kick Neds ass fifty times over. How many piercings did he have and still killed muthafuckers? Ned had one and gave up.

 Uhm, yes, he was probably thinking the same thing when he said it.



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Rygar
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Agreed. My boys of Middle Earth would put Westeros pansys to shame. Plus Aragorn would call on his Dead niggas to fuck shit up.

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Rygar
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Macha wrote:
Rygar wrote:

And when does GRRM know anything? Boromir would kick Neds ass fifty times over. How many piercings did he have and still killed muthafuckers? Ned had one and gave up.

 Uhm, yes, he was probably thinking the same thing when he said it.

 Edited my post

  



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TormundsWoman
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Al Swearengen wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

We forgot to add this to the discussion, Ned is honorable and it got him killed in the end.
Jaime will use all tools at his disposal, including fighting dirty.

 That is an excellent point! Plus I was just thinking that Ned hasn't really fought in a long time. What duels, what real fight would the Lord of Winterfell have had since the Rebellion? Jamie on the other hand had training every day, fought in tournament. Wielding that sword was his job description. There, I practically convinced my own self that Jaime would have won!

 I highly doubt Ned was just sitting around letting his skills erode, he's not Robert.

 No doubt you are correct, he did not just let his skill fade. But he did not train as Jamie did. His lordly tasks, his responsibilities, him being a father and head of a family, Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell took a lot of time. Jaime only had one thing to do in the KG. (Unless you count making love to Cersei) I doubt he was Jamie's equal with whatever training he did.



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TormundsWoman
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Oh, Martin needs to get his shit right! Ned would definitely beat the bejesus out of Boromir. But Aragorn would make mincemeat out of all of the Westeros boys, Jaime included with the possible exception of my Arthur! That's Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, Rygar. You keep messing it up, I shall have to make a hashtag for him.

Experience wise Jaime has been a knight since 15. He's about 35 now, so 20 yrs experience. Aragron is about 80 at the beginning of the Tolkien books. And he's been fighting all over Middle earth since his 20s That's like 60 years of experience!!!!!

Agewise Jamie might look younger than Aragorn true, but Aragorn lived to be 210! because he had Numenorean blood. That's like having the highest count of midichlorians in Star Wars talk. We're talking mad jedi stuff there! Oh, and let's not forget that those of Numenorean blood died still in their power according to Tolkien. I don't see anything special about Jaime's blood. What? from Lan the Clever?!

As for the weapons they fight with, Jamie has just a regular sword, 

Spoiler
, while Aragorn has Anduril for God's sake! That's like the ultimate Lightbringer in ASoIaF terms, and even that is not good enough of a comparison. Oh, let's not forget the armour: Jaime is having a nice Kingsguard armor, but Aragorn has an armor made by ELVES! Need I say more?????

I cannot go on it is killing me to even type all this. Aragorn is beating the crap of everyone else. 

BUT JAMIE IS KILLING NED ABSENT BOTH LEGS AND ONE HAND!



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Saturday 22nd of February 2014 01:55:29 PM

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Rygar
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It took over four arrows to put Boromir down. One spear to the leg for Ned. Boromir would fuck Neds ass while making him play the flute.

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Al Swearengen
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TormundsWoman wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

We forgot to add this to the discussion, Ned is honorable and it got him killed in the end.
Jaime will use all tools at his disposal, including fighting dirty.

 That is an excellent point! Plus I was just thinking that Ned hasn't really fought in a long time. What duels, what real fight would the Lord of Winterfell have had since the Rebellion? Jamie on the other hand had training every day, fought in tournament. Wielding that sword was his job description. There, I practically convinced my own self that Jaime would have won!

 I highly doubt Ned was just sitting around letting his skills erode, he's not Robert.

 No doubt you are correct, he did not just let his skill fade. But he did not train as Jamie did. His lordly tasks, his responsibilities, him being a father and head of a family, Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell took a lot of time. Jaime only had one thing to do in the KG. (Unless you count making love to Cersei) I doubt he was Jamie's equal with whatever training he did.

Even though I believe Jaime would defeat Ned when it came down to it you still can't overlook the vast experience he has under his belt. Ned has countless battles and a major war in his history, no amount of tournaments can teach you that sort of experience.



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Al Swearengen
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On the subject of Middle Earth's warriors vs. Westerosi warriors there is a huge difference in competition. The likes of Boromir and Aargorn mostly fought brutish Orc's and Uruk Hai, they weren't that intelligent nor were they taught by skilled swordsmen. To use a pro wrestling phrase Orc's/Uruk Hai were mostly jobbers.



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Rygar
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The mother fucking flute...

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TormundsWoman
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teehee Boromir was neither gay nor a rapist! You either meant he beats the crap out of Ned or you just stated some shit that just ain't true! (I'm paraphrasing a friend here)

Boromir took three arrows to get to his knees. The fourth one never reached its target. Just checked that on youtube. Badass Aragorn came to the rescue and it was BEAUTIFUL! He chopped that orc to pieces in under 1 min. Well.. Under 20 sec there at the end.

Ned would have had Boromir begging for mercy. The only reason that son of Gondor took so long to fall is because he was in a killed or be killed situation and decided to fight to the end.

Ned was under "take him alive" situation. Fighting would have been useless. To be honest I'm not sure why he even engaged since he was surrounded. Probably because he was pissed for Jory's death. So eventually once he took the spear to the leg decided to do the smart thing and not resist "arrest".

Also: Ned Stark had ICE- Valyrian steel. I'm not even elaborating what that means. I'll tell you what Boromir had. A stick that looked like a sword! Ha, just kidding. A regular broadsword. And I won't even say that both are equal in strength by movie/ series standards. That would be ridiculous. Sean Bean vs. Sean Bean.

Ned Stark would have owned Boromir's ass. And had him play the flute too...



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Rygar
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Boromir would have blown the Horn of Gondor after drinking Ned Starks life blood out of it.

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Rygar
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Ned didn't give a shit about take him alive. He was concerned about his daughters. For that alone he had no choice but to kill them all.

 

Drunk finger s



-- Edited by Rygar on Saturday 22nd of February 2014 07:40:41 PM

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andrea
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Rygar wrote:

The mother fucking flute...

 

You all shadap already.

Faramir will kill´em all with his goodness, braveness, honesty and lovelyness.



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Rygar
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Faramir could blow his nose and destroy half of Rohan.

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