One issue that puzzles me is that Coldhands is not your typical wight. He can communicate and it seems that he's conscious of his own identity. He doesn't have the ice blue eyes of the wights, so we can assume that Bloodraven's magic is different from the one employed by the Others. The question is, why was he reanimated? Was finding and delivering Bran his first and only task?
-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 11:52:04 AM
If he wasn't reanimated by an Other but another (bad pun, I know) who is delving into simmilar arts, that would explain why he's so different from the other wights. Maybe to serve as an emisary, like Yvy said. But if he was very old, his reanimation must have served a purpose not just now but long ago. Hmmm...
Do we know of any instances were someone was contacted by means that could point to Coldhands in the years prior to Bran's encounter?
-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 12:10:22 PM
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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
Yes, Bloodraven and Brynden Rivers are one and the same person. As to his coming to the wall, I believe Master Aemon himself mentioned it in one of Sam's chapters in AFfC. Hmm, question, because I didn't pay attention to this - was Brynden Rivers on that list of previous commanders that Sam mentions at one point?
-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 01:04:04 PM
It's in ADwD, Bran, Jojen and Meera are talking about Coldhands and Bran calls him a monster, to which Coldhands replies "Your monster, Brandon Stark."
-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 06:44:08 PM
Unfortunately we need more info to answer these things ... but I do think maybe he has had him as a "pet" for a while ... no I don't see him as an ordinary wight... could he even be a vassal for Blood raven himself ... enabling him to walk about as Bran does with Hodor?
I only know that the Three Eyed Crow appeared in Jojen's and Euron's dreams, but that doesn't indicate anything related to Coldhands. While I like YvyB's theory about Bloodraven warging Coldhans, my impression remains that Coldhands knows who he is and when he speaks, he speaks as himself, not as Bloodraven. But the problem and "ethics" of warging people has been brought to our attention more in ADwD, so that theory remains very plausible. Ugh, I need to know how Bloodraven ended up in that cave.
I wasn't thinking of warging but more like, reanimating him with or without a modicum of control over your reanimated creature.
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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
Yes, Bloodraven and Brynden Rivers are one and the same person. As to his coming to the wall, I believe Master Aemon himself mentioned it in one of Sam's chapters in AFfC. Hmm, question, because I didn't pay attention to this - was Brynden Rivers on that list of previous commanders that Sam mentions at one point?
-- Edited by Macha on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 01:04:04 PM
Well, we've seen that the dead can return to life in some way or another, and have some sort of personal agency, and that there are different degrees, depending on the magic and length of time dead, whether it be Beric Dondarrion or Catelyn Stark or Ser Robert Strong. Why cannot someone reanimated by such means not be as old as that?
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"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
Bryden RIvers was indeed a lord commander of the wall. He came to the Wall as part of the Honour Guard for Aemon. Still want to know what he did that made Egg send him there in the first place.
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AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
Since when is magic illegal? I actually liked him in the novellas, never got the impression that he was evil (evil of course here being against the ruling monarchy) I mean he quite the Targeryen Loyalist.
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AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
Bryden RIvers was indeed a lord commander of the wall. He came to the Wall as part of the Honour Guard for Aemon. Still want to know what he did that made Egg send him there in the first place.
This point plagues my thoughts since finishing " The Mystery Knight " and falling far short of what happens next.
I'm certain that GRRM will pick up lord Brynden's story but when ? There is so much ground to cover before Egg
becomes king and sends Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven to the Wall.
There may be many speculative attempts about filling in the gaps but GRRM remains the Grand Maester of the Pen.
The ColdHands Theory however is very much at stage One because we only encounter or become acquainted in
ADWD/ book 5. In the same book there is confirmation that The Three Eyed Crow ( Warg persona ) = Bloodraven
= Brynden Rivers = Greenseer. Therefore NOT Coldhands whom separately accompanied Bran, Jojen, Meera and
Hodor to the lair. It is remotely possible however that as Greenseer, astral projection may encompass more than the
already expressed forms that we've been made aware of , but doubtful as we've no proof.
The ColdHands speculation is a migain in the making. It's worst than searching for Horcruxes. At least it makes for
a exhilarating Red Herring tautological debate. I've done the mental pretzel routine. Other theorists have
convinced me to save what remains of my neurons. Thanks alot GRRM
I'd venture to say Coldhands might prove to be an essential piece in explaining the connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others. The fact that he seems to be an agent for The Children or for Bloodraven, who's definitely been central to Bran's development as a character ever since the early stages of AGoT - and a case could be made for Bran to be the main character in the series - this all points to Coldhands having if not an essential role to play, then at least a major symbolic value. To me he feels like someone who's still alive because he bears some sort of curse. I think it's interesting that both he and Bloodraven were initially in the Night's Watch. Granted, Bloodraven may have occasionally warged Mormont's raven, and Coldhands protected Sam and Gilly from the wights, but somehow it doesn't feel like Bloodraven & Co (and here I include the CoTF) seem too preoccupied with the war against the Others. Why is he so eager to teach Bran, and why does Coldhands names himself as Bran's "monster"? Questions, questions.
I'd venture to say Coldhands might prove to be an essential piece in explaining the connection between Bloodraven, the Children and the Others. The fact that he seems to be an agent for The Children or for Bloodraven, who's definitely been central to Bran's development as a character ever since the early stages of AGoT - and a case could be made for Bran to be the main character in the series - this all points to Coldhands having if not an essential role to play, then at least a major symbolic value. To me he feels like someone who's still alive because he bears some sort of curse. I think it's interesting that both he and Bloodraven were initially in the Night's Watch. Granted, Bloodraven may have occasionally warged Mormont's raven, and Coldhands protected Sam and Gilly from the wights, but somehow it doesn't feel like Bloodraven & Co (and here I include the CoTF) seem too preoccupied with the war against the Others. Why is he so eager to teach Bran, and why does Coldhands names himself as Bran's "monster"? Questions, questions.
I have no proof but I do not believe lord Brynden as sole warg to all the ravens, including Old Bear's.
The Ravens are very intriguing to me and I'd put aside that thought to float among mine others within
my bowl of saved /imcomplete thoughts and theories ( think Dumbledore's memory seive ). These
black winged creatures may represent long ago Brothers of the Night Watch for ages ago. They are
ever protective of the ranging brothers and not only Bran and his small entourage. They saved
Samwell and Gilly ( accompanied by Coldhands of course ) and often made appearances when Wildlings
traveled unthreateningly through the frozen North. Old Bear's raven was extra special and kept
special watch on the Lords Paramount of the Night's Watch.
It is not unusual as some warriors and soldiers alike have noted that the spirit of their fallen fellows
of alms ( arms ) fight alongside them when a repeated battle stirs up among known enemies.
Tolkien's Lord of the Ring Trilogy and various battle stories shared by various soldiers have given
accounts of this . Much as their troop psychologist would love to discount, there has been an eerie
story in common of soldiers account of this. It's not a far writer's stretch to assert this perspective
into a story of warriors against a known enemy threat.
Whether ColdHands prove essential or not would wholely depend on additional clues we must
continue to unravel but likely from upcoming insights from GRRM. AND he'd better give us
some Corn soon or I'm gonna get peckish in more than one fashion .
The reply that Coldhands made to Bran's comment gave me a different perspective than him owing
only Bran particular allegience ( totally sticking my ass out on this one folks ), I presumed the
comment referred to being of service to his fellow Brother's of the Night's Watch ( the Crows and/or
Ravens ) including lord Brynden ( aka Bloodraven ). Bran may view him as a monster physically,
and even mistrust him as he did initially. That's a pragmatic response if anything. I believe Leaf
gave some suggestion ( but not a whole answer ) of Coldhand's nature of alliance to them.
It's been a topic of some thought for this woman also, what is the nature of the Bloodraven's teachings and what does he really want? Cold Hands appears to be some type servant of his IMO, but what is the nature of his service? Will he be there if Bran goes back to the Wall at some point? Will Bloodraven and Cold Hands prevent Bran from leaving? There's so many ways this could go, a woman is anxiously awaiting the next book!!!!
This is a very interesting theory indeed, Wildseed.
WildSeed wrote:
Old Bear's raven was extra special and kept special watch on the Lords Paramount of the Night's Watch.
But I wonder, can we really call ravens as being protective towards the Watch? The only time when that happens is when Coldhands rescues Sam and Gilly, and the ravens interviened at his/Bloodraven's command. But Mormont's raven didn't hesitate to peck at his face once he was dead. The raven's age is indeed peculiar. How many years have passed since Bloodraven was appointed Lord commander, I wonder.
Ya know Macha you make a very good point that most of us don't take in to account; the animal retains it's natural state or form. A Warg has the ability to influence it's host which differs from completely becoming that animal or entity. The SkinChangers seem to have perfected this ability however not without consequences. Jojen repeatedly warned Bran of losing himself that way. I would ponder that the COTF have witnessed the effects for some time and observing the impact made of their living a normal life.
For want it intends, warging proves to be a useful tool when needed and leaving the host unharmed.
These older Ravens are interesting as they may be Night Bros /SkinChangers of a higher form. I would not rule out there natural tendencies completely erased, they may and eat or just peck. Coldhands is a Wight so he had no use of food, poor guy.
Would someone remind me where the theory Benjen = (body of) Coldhands comes from and what supports it? Because other than "hope that Benjen is coming back" is the only thing I can figure out, and it really doesn't work out that way anyway.
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"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
That's usually it, Cary. I thought the same thing when I first finished ASoS. And the fact that he's/was a brother of the NW. And helps Bran....sort of. And wears a hood and scarf, which makes many readers believe he's hiding his true identity for some reason.
I agree , it's GRRM's way of doing things ... little hints and red herrings ... then BAM ! Ha ha fooled you all !
Yep, it's maddening
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
