I always wanted to see some James Cagney movies, KM. I'll get around to it one of these days. I saw Angels with Dirty Faces when I was probably in highschool. But other than that nothing.

There are noir movies that are not B&W though. Some of Hitchcock's are considered noir. Vertigo for sure. I must have seen that one a LOT of times. Can't think of anything else but I've got A Bout De Souffle on DVD actually because everyone raved about it as Godard's masterpiece and Belmondo is weird in it. I don't get it.

Andrea! I think that's one of the best I've seen along with Notorious! I also love L.A. Confidential. It's the fedoras, bourbon and cigarettes.

This thing with the Noir genre is a whole thing because the noir movies had a short period in Hollywood but you still can find some of the "signs" of the genre in many movies... like you said TW, LA Confidential is a really great example (loved it too and used it to teach scripts paradigma).

Like TKM I also loved the B&W (especially the mute B&W)... talking about it, I guess you both watched The Third Man. Lordy, I loved that movie.

TormundsWoman wrote:

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Oh, you'd be so wrong! I haven't seen The Third Man but now that you've mentioned it, it goes straight to my top of the list. (my movie rental list is loooong). Sounds so cool to teach that, btw.

I do find a lot of noir movies lately. I realize that Fargo would totally fit the bill. Did anyone watch that Coen Bros movie? Because I had an argument if it is a crime noir or dark comedy. I went with first but the gentleman said it's a dark comedy. I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion.

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 I'd have to go with dark comedy too, it doesn't really have the "flawed hero" and Marge was just too nice to be in a film noir!

KM! You went with dark comedy! I get your point though I don't agree with it. I found Marge's message, the hopeless desperation at the end to be quite tragic. The whole movie being an absurd crime movie with some elements of dark humor yet a crime movie all the same.

Does "The Man Who Wasn't There" fits the description? 'Cause that film was really good. And i loved Fargo too.

TormundsWoman wrote:

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I realize that Fargo would totally fit the bill. Did anyone watch that Coen Bros movie? Because I had an argument if it is a crime noir or dark comedy. I went with first but the gentleman said it's a dark comedy. I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion.

---

 I like this. Genre is an interesting subject because it changed a lot in the last decades. Movies or tv shows are not easy to classify now, they have characteristics from all genres. There´s always one that sets the tone, the style in general so you can say is horror, sci-fi or comedy, or action (which is not a genre), etc. Genre now can be just part of the  structure of a movie but when you start watching old movies you can see genre was a whole other thing, especially with Film noir because it was/is the best literary genre to adapt to the big screen.

Hollywood system was all about genre (still is) because genre is all about plot and structure, so it´s safe because plot is contained and limited. Funny thing is the most wonderful Film noir directors were not Hollywood stereotype at all. They were authors, like the Coen bros are. The difference is that old film noir directors trusted in genre from beginning to end, script and aesthetics. New directors love genre, (because you also have silly people saying that genre is not interesting and too limitated and all that crap), but they use genre just to break the rules of it and make it more interesting and diversed. Blahdiblah, I like both in film noir case because it´s a very specific type of movie with specific type of characters and cinematography.  Is fascinating how the most limitated genre gave life to great independent movies and the best of Hollywood sausage factory crime movies.

The main characteristic, also my favorite, is the type of detective, comparing to classic crime stories like Sherlock Holmes or  Poe´s Dupin. The film noir protagonist has grey morals, he is half criminal, half cop and he´s vicious! but most of all he needs his freedom, freedom to do whatever he wants when he wants it (that´s why the actors playing these characters were badass), freedom to go outside, get dirty, be beaten up by gangsters and fucked by terrible, curvy, clever women. On the contrary, Dupin, as a classic crime detective, solved the crimes without going out, just using the newspaper´s headlines. This kind of PI are always  extraordinarily intelligent but film noir ones, not so much. To have a detective who wants to go out and play was just the perfect character for interesting movies. I think we all can thank Fritz Lang for that. The cinematography from german expressionism mixed with yank literature. Great combo. Sorry, got carried away, just tell me if it is a mess.

So, strictly genre-wise, Fargo is not film noir. The Coens are almost a genre by themselves: they have black humor, absurd, film noir, classic crime, light comedy, drama, horror. Like many many other new and not so new directors. Cassavetes comes to mind too, Polanski, Nicholas Ray, lordy, so many.

Una perlita: was Edgard Alan Poe who wrote the first film noir "detective" without knowing it, of course. Check "El hombre de la multitud", it´s awesome and very short.

So, let´s check more film noir:

In a lonely place (Nicholas Ray), Out of the past, (J. Tourneur) with Robert Mitchum , The big heat (F. Lang), The maltese falcon (J. Huston) and just for now Chinatown, directed by Polansky (with Jack Nicholson and F. Dunaway).

Oh wait, Wim Wenders, the german director, jumped into noir too with Hammet, this one is from the 80´s but it´s made like an old one, pure genre I think, even the cinematography. Well, Wenders luuuuuuuuuuuuuuvs Nicholas Ray.

Oh wait, we argentinians have one too! "Apenas un delincuente", directed by Hugo Fregonese. And it´s good for the times.

Yes TW, you´ll find noir elements everywhere because  Noir is just great.

 

 

 

 

-- Edited by andrea on Thursday 24th of July 2014 03:25:06 PM

Man, i love reading andi's comments, that train of thought kind of way she writes makes me feel like i'm inside her head!

I just found out i'm a huge coen brothers fan, just looking their filmography i got some of my favorite movies ever:

Raising Arizona
Fargo
The Big Lebowski
O Brother, Where Art Thou
The Man Who Wasn't There
Intolerable Cruelty
The Ladykillers
No Country for Old Men
True Grit
Burn After Reading

Andi, i agree they have their own style, kinda like a mix of genres really, a bit of this a bit of that, they don't seem to fit exactly in any of them.

 

 

ps: sorry for the off-topic.

andrea wrote:

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TormundsWoman wrote:

---

I realize that Fargo would totally fit the bill. Did anyone watch that Coen Bros movie? Because I had an argument if it is a crime noir or dark comedy. I went with first but the gentleman said it's a dark comedy. I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion.

---

 I like this. Genre is an interesting subject because it changed a lot in the last decades. Movies or tv shows are not easy to classify now, they have characteristics from all genres. There´s always one that sets the tone, the style in general so you can say is horror, sci-fi or comedy, or action (which is not a genre), etc. Genre now can be just part of the  structure of a movie but when you start watching old movies you can see genre was a whole other thing, especially with Film noir because it was/is the best literary genre to adapt to the big screen.

Hollywood system was all about genre (still is) because genre is all about plot and structure, so it´s safe because plot is contained and limited. Funny thing is the most wonderful Film noir directors were not Hollywood stereotype at all. They were authors, like the Coen bros are. The difference is that old film noir directors trusted in genre from beginning to end, script and aesthetics. New directors love genre, (because you also have silly people saying that genre is not interesting and too limitated and all that crap), but they use genre just to break the rules of it and make it more interesting and diversed. Blahdiblah, I like both in film noir case because it´s a very specific type of movie with specific type of characters and cinematography.  Is fascinating how the most limitated genre gave life to great independent movies and the best of Hollywood sausage factory crime movies.

The main characteristic, also my favorite, is the type of detective, comparing to classic crime stories like Sherlock Holmes or  Poe´s Dupin. The film noir protagonist has grey morals, he is half criminal, half cop and he´s vicious! but most of all he needs his freedom, freedom to do whatever he wants when he wants it (that´s why the actors playing these characters were badass), freedom to go outside, get dirty, be beaten up by gangsters and fucked by terrible, curvy, clever women. On the contrary, Dupin, as a classic crime detective, solved the crimes without going out, just using the newspaper´s headlines. This kind of PI are always  extraordinarily intelligent but film noir ones, not so much. To have a detective who wants to go out and play was just the perfect character for interesting movies. I think we all can thank Fritz Lang for that. The cinematography from german expressionism mixed with yank literature. Great combo. Sorry, got carried away, just tell me if it is a mess.

So, strictly genre-wise, Fargo is not film noir. The Coens are almost a genre by themselves: they have black humor, absurd, film noir, classic crime, light comedy, drama, horror. Like many many other new and not so new directors. Cassavetes comes to mind too, Polanski, Nicholas Ray, lordy, so many.

Una perlita: was Edgard Alan Poe who wrote the first film noir "detective" without knowing it, of course. Check "El hombre de la multitud", it´s awesome and very short.

So, let´s check more film noir:

In a lonely place (Nicholas Ray), Out of the past, (J. Tourneur) with Robert Mitchum , The big heat (F. Lang), The maltese falcon (J. Huston) and just for now Chinatown, directed by Polansky (with Jack Nicholson and F. Dunaway).

Oh wait, Wim Wenders, the german director, jumped into noir too with Hammet, this one is from the 80´s but it´s made like an old one, pure genre I think, even the cinematography. Well, Wenders luuuuuuuuuuuuuuvs Nicholas Ray.

Oh wait, we argentinians have one too! "Apenas un delincuente", directed by Hugo Fregonese. And it´s good for the times.

Yes TW, you´ll find noir elements everywhere because  Noir is just great.

-- Edited by andrea on Thursday 24th of July 2014 03:25:06 PM

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Andrea! I love your post. No it's not a mess. I understood everything. I did wonder why I cannot pinpoint a genre for the Coen brothers. Because I'm watching lately a lot of their movies. They really are eclectic in their style. And I do see elements of noir almost everywhere these days  

I got the The Maltese Falcon on DVD is one of my faves from Bogart, actually.