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Topic: Episode 504 - The Sons of the Harpy *No book spoilers*

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Macha
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Episode 504 - The Sons of the Harpy *No book spoilers*
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Synopsis:

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DonalNoyesArm
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Episode 4 open! Here we gooooo! taco

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Nymeria Warrior Queen
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It will be such sweet relief to get past this episode, since it is the last of the leaked ones.

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Rygar
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I have a feeling this one will suck.

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Nymeria Warrior Queen wrote:

It will be such sweet relief to get past this episode, since it is the last of the leaked ones.

 Meeee toooo!



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YvyB
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me too

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JapieQ
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I'm 98% sure it will suck.

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Japie! spank You aren't a Red priest! You can't read the flames! pyro



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Great quality, keeping up the good stuff from last week.

The Faith Militant uprising was great, the way the sequence was edited and with the music it built up very well.
Poor Tommen, too nice to be a decisive king, say what you will of Joffrey at least he DID stuff.
Stannis and Shireen OMG all the feels loved it! Please don't let her die!
Jon and Melly, she wanted to "cast a shadow" we know what she was after! freakout
Oh and Jaime had a GOLDEN moment with his hand, loved it...so funny.

So a lotta discussion about the Harpies vs Unsullied, first the Harpies have more the triple the numbers, the element of surprise, they also chose the location well, a tight hallway is very detrimental to the Unsullied choice of spears.
Poor Ser Grandpa, at least he took out 8(!!!) of them, but he has gotten rusty.

Only scene I found weak was the sand snakes, like Doran the scene was too short, almost half into the season and we barely know anything of the Dornish.

8/10.... challenge me peeps! Lessgo! dance



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Rygar
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It sucked. Big time. Higlight Stannis and Shireen. Low lights, the remaining 50 mins. NEXT.

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Ry! The 10 word review thread is the OTHER way!

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Rygar
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Ok. Let me start with the Faith Militant. Wtf is that? It was so cringe worthy I almost had to leave the room. I felt like I was watching an episode of True Blood. It made zero sense. SO NOT ONLY DO THE SPARROWS GIVE UP THEIR SHOES BUT THE BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF ANYONE AND TAKE NO SHITS AND GIVE NO FUCKS? Sorry cap lock. The Sand snakes are just as bad. And they were meaningless in the books so
Why even go there?  Let sleeping snakes lie.   

That final scene was ridiculous

The whore's fake wailing and then smiling after sums it all up. Yep, this will be one poor executed scene. Fucking cheesy. At least fat selmy is dead.



-- Edited by Rygar on Sunday 3rd of May 2015 11:07:11 PM

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Black as Snow
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The episode was a mixed bag. So Dorne...I thought Bronn and Jamie on the ship were so good, and Bronn and Jamie in Dorne were so lackluster. They don't have the chemistry they ought to have. Bronn is still such an enjoyable character, regardless. And Jamie as they sailed past Tarth...I loved that moment.

I can't stand Ellaria this season. They ruined a perfectly good character. And I guess those are all Oberyn's bastard daughters? Let me get this straight. The oh-so-enlightened Oberyn took his bastard children from their mothers and turned them into warriors? Sounds rather...spartan, for lack of a better word. I would have expected better of him. Too bad he didn't bother instilling his principles in them, while he was at it.

Essos...Tyrion was great, even though he ought to be treading more carefully. Isn't this kind of a retread of Season 1 with Cat? I would have liked a quick Varys scene. I liked the scene with Selmy and Dany, although it was a bit forced. It's annoying that Dany's still such an idealistic fool. She won't be able to rule effectively if she doesn't climb down from her ivory tower. How can it be that she hasn't learned that after all this time?

The Harpy battle pissed me off. Are you seriously telling me that the Unsullied don't carry short swords or daggers or anything for close quarter battle? And if so, that they haven't made adjustments to their weaponry for patrolling narrow city streets? It's the worst series of fighting scenes of the series. It's the product of lazy writing by people who haven't bothered to think things through. Just as with the Sparrow army, they're trying to make a real threat out of a bunch of untrained rabble. I'm completely disgusted.

Speaking of the sparrows, Cersei does not know who she's screwing with. It's incomprehensible that she's actually so desperate and short-sighted that she would destroy her son rather than be bested by Margaery. She has created a monster. As ridiculous as the sparrow army is, she won't be able to control them or the High Sparrow. He's playing her for a fool. Poor Tommen, torn between two strong-willed women. He's like a deer in the headlights between two trucks playing chicken. It was obvious things wouldn't go well for him, but it's sad to watch.

I liked the happenings in Winterfell and at the Wall. Good stuff there. The return of Emo Jon cracked me up. And the "You know nothing." Ugh.


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DonalNoyesArm
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I was personally not surprised the Unsullied fared poorly.

Back in season 3, Kraznys stated that the Unsullied are "unproven and should be blooded early" and Dany has done neither, and did not use them to sack any of the smaller cities on the way.

So Dany's unsullied have had very little action and are quite green. Other than the plaza in Astaphor when Dany turned them on their masters, they have done nothing but march. They did nothing in Yunkai as that city was taken over by their own slaves soldiers and the same happened in Meereen. 

Unsullied are trained to be open field soldiers, not a police force dealing with an enemy using guerilla tactics in tight city confines with many civilians in the mix. They got caught by surprise, cornered, overwhelmed by larger numbers and in a location that placed their primary weapon at a disadvantage. 

I counted, Grey Worms patrol was a unit of 7, and they faced off against 20 initially in the hallway, with another 8 reinforcements that came in after they killed a duo of unsullied in the circular rotunda. 

Daario even noted that the Unsullied lack instincts, anyone with any semblance of street smarts would've smelled something fishy or had a gut feeling something was off especially after that whore was being so theatrical.

So it all makes sense to me at least. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 



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Cary Storm
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I hate:
Sand Snakes.
"Let's just keep repeating all of their names and mention Oberyn's name a bunch of times so everyone is sure who they are and who is who in this family relationship and do nothing else in this scene."
Faith Militant
"Let's take peaceful and harmless creatures like the sparrows and give them swords and suddenly they're ninjas."
Grey Worm and Barriston's apparent death scene
"You what is the most TV-like thing we can do? Cliffhanger deaths..."
Ellaria's hair. And her failing accent. Fuck, let me just bitch about the Sand Snakes again.
"Nym. Nym. Nym. Nym. Obarrrrrrrra."

I love:
The precious hug between Baratheon father and daughter.
Sansa's descent into darkness
Margaery's manipulativeness. I'm loving the development in her character.
Cersei's descent into madness.

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Cary Storm
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Oh, yes, I truly giggled when Melisandre said "You know nothing."

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I don't know what some of you mean with " off chemistry" of Bronn and Jaime. Jaime is a highborn, Bronn is a sellsword. Jaime respects Bronn's skill, but I feel he also has some resentment that he needs help from him as Jaime was once of the finest swordmen in Westeros. I feel there is a bit of jealousy under the surface. But Jaime needs Bronn, as Bronn is resourceful and also discreet as he proved last season.

It makes sense that his report with Bronn is different than the Tyrion/Bronn combo and why he is making Bronn doing all the dirty work ( digging/rowing) as a not-so-subtle way of taking jabs at Bronn being a better fighter than him.



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Cosca
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I thought this was a good episode. Not as good as episode 3 but solid.

- I thought the scenes in King's Landing were very well put together, even if the Faith Militant's rise seemed a bit rushed. The way the scenes with Tommen flowed in particularly was very appealing
- I also believed the Unsullied would do poorly Don. They were ambushed, they're not made for that sort of combat, and they absolutely weren't expecting such resistance. Till then only a single unsullied had been killed by a single Harpy.
- Shireen and Stannis. Adorable
- Both Tyrion and Jorah were complete dicks. I look forward to the rest of their journey together.
- Melisandre-Jon scene was curiously drama free.
- Sand Snakes were lame, no getting around it. Cheesy accents, poor direction, evil monologuing.

The Faith militant didn't seem like an army or ninjas to me. They're just a bunch of thugs who were given a blank cheque by Cersei. They already attacked the brothel last episode rather than being harmless, though they were considerably less violent (again, because they weren't given free reign).
Cersei, I absolutely think is dumb enough to do this. She always thinks she's the smartest person in the room, even when it's been demonstrated time and time again that she's largely out of her depth. To her the High Sparrow is some ignorant peasant fanatic, which his followers may be, but he's clearly playing her. She also doesn't realise how much she's undermining her son, all she cares about is teaching him a lesson and regaining her power.

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Dolan
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I love that the parts people hated the most where the ones they kept closer to the pooks! they should've cut the Sand Snakes altogether.

About that last scene i have a few things to say:
The Unsullied are trained for open combat on a battlefield not ambushes on a alley - someone on wotw mentioned they should've used their short swords, which i agree was a slight by D&D and the Director, they should've remembered that - and still outnumbered, they killed a lot more Harpys than Harpys killed Unsullied, so i don't see any error in that. Or do you guys think it would be better if 20 Unsullied killed a 1000 Harpy's and survive without a single scratch? I know what kind of complaint i would be reading if that was the case.

Also Barristan and GW died the way every warriot-type character wishes to die, fighting for something they believe and dying with sword (or spear) in hand. Specially Selmy who was already looking at his final years.

The fight choreography in that scene was really great, because it didn't felt like it was choreographed, it really gave me the sense that these are two guys fighting for their lives against people who really hate them, there was the skill with arms but there was also the brutality of the fight in it. Specially when Selmy opened some dude from neck to groin with his sword, that was really something! (and now i know what GRRM meant when he use the expression "from neck to groin" in the pooks!)



-- Edited by Dolan on Monday 4th of May 2015 10:29:33 AM

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Rygar
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I thought the whole ambush scene was poorly written and executed, and what set the tone was the " upset" whore pointing to where the Harpies went and then the evil "heh heh heh" as soon as they left. Its something I'd expect from Aegons pet novel project.

 

I don't really care about what the unsullied should have or would have done.  The scene was bad overall.  It was juvenile and clichéd, topped off with Fat Selmys conspicuous stunt double. 






-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 4th of May 2015 10:48:01 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Rygar wrote:

Don't really care about what the unsullied should have or would have done.  The scene was bad overall.  It was juvenile and clichéd, topped off with Fat Selmys conspicuous stunt double. 

 

What was "juvenile" about it?



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Rygar
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It was something a 15 year old would write.

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So GRRM then. teehee

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No GRRM would have had Selmy ass raped. ;)



-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 4th of May 2015 11:26:10 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Oh gawd. The mental picture. puke

Still, I feel what we are seeing on screen is more fun and engaging than the POOKS, at least I am not bored to death.

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Cary Storm
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I disagree with Rygar about the overall composition of the scene. I think the fighting went well. I hated the "OMG ARE THEY DEAD OR NOT" cliffhanger. It was like watching a soap opera.

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Nymeria Warrior Queen
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Rygar wrote:

topped off with Fat Selmys conspicuous stunt double. 






-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 4th of May 2015 10:48:01 AM

 "McElhinney explains that there was a stuntman there for him, if needed. “But the bottom line is that nobody ever wants — they don’t want, you don’t want — for a stunt person to be doing the fight for you. You want to get to the stage where you’re doing it yourself. They want that to happen too. It’s always much more believable and much more effective when that happens. So we didn’t need to use a stuntman to cover any of the moves, and that’s all to the good.” "



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Rygar
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Big fat liar

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Cosca
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Ha! So much for the stunt double. I'm impressed that McElhinney was so dedicated.

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Rygar
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If that's not a stunt double then I don't know what to think. It looked terrible.

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Nymeria Warrior Queen
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I could be wrong, and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I believe he has a stage background and is classically trained. That would mean he has a great deal of experience with stage combat, so it isn't really surprising, at least to me.

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DonalNoyesArm
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To be fair I also thought I saw a double, lemme see if I can grab a still.


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Yeah, no way that is Ian, that looks like a dude with a Mall Santa beard!

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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Nymeria Warrior Queen
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Yeah, that definitely doesn't look like him.

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Cosca
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Yeah, that pretty confirms that then. I was convinced anyway, but maybe I have low standards. If you hadn't paused it I'd never have noticed.

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They probably did multiple takes of the fight, first with Ian, and then with the double, and for some shots the double might've looked better and they used that take. So Ian might be telling the truth that he did the whole scene, but he did not know what parts were swapped in the edit.

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They probably shot scenes with and without.

 

Don and his Admin powers beat me to it!!!



-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 4th of May 2015 04:06:10 PM

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The scene with the Sand Snakes was really, really bad. And to think they cut Arianne for that shit biggrin I hope Alexander Siddig is able to salvage Dorne cause I have a feeling D & D are going to give the Martell's the Greyjoy treatment.

Barristan The Bold killed by Sons of The Harpy, and you wonder why this show makes me angry.

The scene with Stannis and Shireen was excellent! It's pity scenes like that are few and far between these days.

Bronn's dialogue inside the ship pretty much sums up that dumb devation. I did like Jaime using his hand to block the sword, that was a neat touch.

Showing how much of a pushover Tommen is makes sense, I just wish they could of hired more extras for that Sept scene, it looked really ridiculous and low budget.

Was the nudity really necessary in the scene with Jon and Melisandre? I'd like to think a character like that would be able to seduce men with her beguiling ways, not her bewbs and firecrotch. Carice's delivery of Ygritte's line was great though.

And I thought the Unsullied were suppose to be one of the most feared and revered armies in the world? Cause the Sons of the Harpy made them look like a bunch of amateurs.

Ser Meryn Trant to Bravos = Valar Morghulis



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DonalNoyesArm
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I agree from what I have seen of Dorne, I am a bit dissapointed. Last season they really nailed Oberyn, granted it is a completely different challenge introducing ALL of Dorne with 7 new characters. I do agree of what we have seen Siddig has been good, lets hope it picks up.

Jeez you guys, I totally explained the Unsullied battle tactic failures, complete with schematics, stats and video evidence...why is no one listening to me? GUYS!



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Rygar
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I never thought unsullied were the best warriors/fighters, only that they were the perfect soldiers due to their unwavering loyalty and immunity to feel fear/pain. I thought the Dothraki were the better fighters and DAario.


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Dolan
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i'm pretty sure if those handful of unsullied actually killed the dozens of Harpies people would be complaining about it being unrealistic too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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DonalNoyesArm
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People and things rarely are what they claim to be by others.

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Don, you made valid points about the Unsullied, and I think maybe you see it differently based on your additional knowledge from the books. I still think it was a shockingly bad scene. I think Al summed it up nicely. They looked like amateurs. Why would anyone bother spending their fortune on an army of Unsullied? Because they march prettily and know how to swing a stick? Any group of people can be taught to do that. That's precisely what conventional armies are. I assumed that their reputation had some basis in fact, not on sales pitches. And I assumed they would have more versatile skills and training. I'm disappointed. They wouldn't stand a chance against a group of mercenaries like Daario's.

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Black as Snow
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Al Swearengen wrote:
Ser Meryn Trant to Bravos = Valar Morghulis

   This!  This needs to happen.  It's way too early for Arya to do it, but still... I want.



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Rygar
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Hmmm. Could be? Arya did not let go of all of her past afterall (Needle). Wow. Killing Meryn in Braavos would be justice for Syrio!

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Dolan
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I think people are reacting emotionally to the death of characters they like.
Look, from my conversations with a fellow detractor about sword fighting, if you face more than 2 opponents alone you're probably dead, at this point the difference in skill goes out the window, no matter how fast you are you will give your back to the opponent, and then you're dead - or any other uncovered spots, really. That's what happened to GW and Selmy, just too many enemies, same can be said for the rest of the unsullied.

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If only he had one of these! saber



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Black as Snow wrote:

Don, you made valid points about the Unsullied, and I think maybe you see it differently based on your additional knowledge from the books. I still think it was a shockingly bad scene. I think Al summed it up nicely. They looked like amateurs. Why would anyone bother spending their fortune on an army of Unsullied? Because they march prettily and know how to swing a stick? Any group of people can be taught to do that. That's precisely what conventional armies are. I assumed that their reputation had some basis in fact, not on sales pitches. And I assumed they would have more versatile skills and training. I'm disappointed. They wouldn't stand a chance against a group of mercenaries like Daario's.

 Actually, Basi I think there are many with additional knowledge from the books that still think it was a poor scene for the Harpies to simply take down the handful of Unsullied and Ser Barristan teehee Books have portrayed the Unsullied and Ser Barristan skill and knowledge just like the show if not more fierce and skilled. And I agree with you on the whole. They tried their best to give him and honorable death but it simply didn't look consistent to me with what we know so far about the Unsullied and Ser Barry!



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Cosca
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What would have been consistent for Ser Barry? I get the complaints about the Unsullied (even if I disagree), but Barristan did incredibly well, befitting his legendary status.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Yeah he took down like 10 guys! But the result of the fight seemed realistic, I am just bummed he is gone, I really liked him and wished they used him more. That's my only regret of that scene.

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