Ok, this is gonna be a tough one. I.......nnnnnnever really liked Arya all that much. There, I said it. This has NOTHING to do with the show, where Maisie Williams is fantastic and I love her to bits. This is strictly about the character in the books. She's well written, mind you. I've just never cared for her the way most readers do - yes, she's a tomboy (and we all know tomboys are endearing), she's feisty, she doesn't care for traditional gender roles and she puts up a good fight, and yet she just doesn't click with me. To me, it somehow feels like GRRM put too much effort into making her likeable. Now, if Arya
Spoiler
will continue to veer towards the 'dark side' and lose her identity as a Stark (and I'm pretty sure she dies by the end of the series),
then I'll applaud that effort. Untill then, consider me heartless, but I'm simply not that invested in her storyline.
-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 30th of August 2012 03:57:57 AM
Well, a woman must say that Arya is ONE of my favorites, but there are times when she is a brat for sure. She has had quite a lot of tragedies to deal with though in S1 & S2, and she appears to be growing up FAST. Going through what she has gone through, she is doing much better than many would in her situations. But it's understandable that everybody has their favorites. It was sad to see Jaqen leave of course, and wouldn't it be cool to see him return someday (in the Tom W. face)? That's my confession, wishing to see Jaqen back again in a later season.
My confession -- I absolutely can't stand Ygitte (spelling?). Of course, I haven't read the books and can only guess about what happens next, but so far she annoys the hell out of me. I'm not sure whether its the actress or the character that bothers me. Maybe she'll grow on me in season 3.
Ok, this is gonna be a tough one. I.......nnnnnnever really liked Arya all that much. There, I said it. This has NOTHING to do with the show, where Maisie Williams is fantastic and I love her to bits. This is strictly about the character in the books. She's well written, mind you. I've just never cared for her the way most readers do - yes, she's a tomboy (and we all know tomboys are endearing), she's feisty, she doesn't care for traditional gender roles and she puts up a good fight, and yet she just doesn't click with me. To me, it somehow feels like GRRM put too much effort into making her likeable. Now, if Arya
Spoiler
will continue to veer towards the 'dark side' and lose her identity as a Stark (and I'm pretty sure she dies by the end of the series)
, then I'll applaud that effort. Untill then, consider me heartless, but I'm simply not that invested in her storyline.
I like book Arya because she's perceptive and smart. Her POV instantly perceives the danger there is for a child and
the challenges of female orphan. She also proves to be pragmatic and connects us to the rest of GRRM's story of
special born characters and evolving story. I prefer the non prissy storyline for her in the same way I am opposed
to Sansa's naive assumptions of the world that can only dream of. To me Sansa is someone that GRRM has written
details of in order to like her. In many ways, as it is in life there are differing perspectives and experiences. Everyone
has a story. It's impossible to take sides as we balance the circumstances and choices there to make. Their father
Eddard is considered an honorable man yet his decisions according to some were shortsighted and unwise in the
political climate he lived in. Sometimes life isn't by the book and we need to balance good and bad at the same
time, or are there only those 2 options ?
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:31:13 AM
Can't argue with that, Wildseed. I was actually taking a more visceral approach. There are many characters I do not approve of, but still enjoy tremendously, because of how well written they are - Theon in ADwD comes to mind. I remember reading his chapters in Winterfell and having to go back in order to re-read whole paragraphs simply because I thought to myself 'damn, this is some great writing, right here". Of course, there is still a bit of compassion there though, which translates into a real attachment to some of the characters whose actions I wouldn't condone in real life. Cersei is a marvelously written character as well, and I enjoy hating her with a passion. I do not enjoy hating
Spoiler
Roose or Ramsay
though.
Arya is just one of those characters I know I'm supposed to like, and yet the best I can manage is indiference. Sansa, I enjoy her a lot more because, somehow, she feels more realistic to me.
Ok, another confession while we're at it, though it's more of a (dis)belief actually: I find most scenarios concerning
Spoiler
LF's demise at the hands of Sansa to be unconvincing. Yes, she's learning to be a player and yes, it would make an unexpected ending - only it isn't unexpected now that the majority of readers dream of it. The more I analize GRRM's writing style, the more I see that he just doesn't play by our exectations. Cersei is on Arya's list but I'm 100% sure Arya will not be the one to kill her, just like she didn't kill Joffrey or the Hound. Yes, some retribution is needed in this series, but the way I see it Sansa is actually becoming LF's 'partner in crime', if anything. And while we're on the topic of Sansa, here is a confession: I actually wish for her to remain married to Tyrion, I personally think it would be a plus for the narative. She's getting paired up with just about anyone, but I see no satisfying explanation as to why or how her marriage should/could be annuled. Plus, ever since her interactions with the Hound in ACoK, it seemed obvious she wouldn't find her Prince Charming, au contraire, or - if she finds someone to love and who loves her back - he would be anything but the man she originally dreamed of.
-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 30th of August 2012 04:00:26 AM
-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 30th of August 2012 04:02:05 AM
Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
My confesion: Apart from the RV+Ellaria sand, I really don't like the Martells. Every time I had to read one of their chapters, the little mice at the wheels in my brain where groaning and moaning "no, not again"! I particularly don't like Arianne and the Sand Snakes, they're too much like Charlie's Angels! (I'll give a pass to Sarella though until we get to know her better)
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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
My confesion: Apart from the RV+Ellaria sand, I really don't like the Martells. Every time I had to read one of their chapters, the little mice at the wheels in my brain where groaning and moaning "no, not again"! I particularly don't like Arianne and the Sand Snakes, they're too much like Charlie's Angels! (I'll give a pass to Sarella though until we get to know her better)
I am not alone! You stole the words right out of my mouth.
And Ros is fiiiine. So is Aidan Gillen's Littlefinger and his accent. *runs for cover*
*Prepares to throw Macha with rotten tomato* I really don't like non-readers who don't want to read the books for no other reason than "it's +800 pages!" Those like Black as Snow who want to read it when the show is done are fine.
__________________
AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
Fine choose a guy who married for love and allowed his children to do the same which split the realm and led to civil war without end above a guy who united Westeros for the first time.
__________________
AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
Macha, a woman understands your point regarding visceral versus mental appreciation of a character. Perhaps this woman likes Arya because, even though I was the younger sister I had to defend my older sister from bullies and so respect the "little warrior" that is Arya. So, I relate to her more than some other characters that are more "ladylike," which is fine too but not always my own style either (a part-time tomboy).
With Sansa, it would be a natural progression for her to become
Spoiler
more of a partner to LF (as she really is a partner in hiding his murderous ways), but only until she can see a way out and away from him into a more safe situation. She does not trust him, and I do not believe she will ever love him. That's going to be a messy situation for a while. Sansa's hatred for Lannisters really is in the way of her ever being a good marital partner for Tyrion if that were ever to be possible again. There may be a "divorce" for those such as Sansa - we just don't know of it yet. The king can make any decree it seems, so once she gets a friendly king on her side that marriage may be put aside quite easily if the situation presents itself. She would need to go through a drastic internal change to ever accept a real marriage to Tyrion in any case
, but who knows? Anything could happen.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:32:27 AM
Can't argue with that, Wildseed. I was actually taking a more visceral approach. There are many characters I do not approve of, but still enjoy tremendously, because of how well written they are -
Spoiler
Theon in ADwD comes to mind. I remember reading his chapters in Winterfell and having to go back in order to re-read whole paragraphs simply because I thought to myself 'damn, this is some great writing, right here".
Of course, there is still a bit of compassion there though, which translates into a real attachment to some of the characters whose actions I wouldn't condone in real life. Cersei is a marvelously written character as well, and I enjoy hating her with a passion.
Spoiler
I do not enjoy hating Roose or Ramsay though
.
Arya is just one of those characters I know I'm supposed to like, and yet the best I can manage is indiference. Sansa, I enjoy her a lot more because, somehow, she feels more realistic to me.
Ok, another confession while we're at it, though it's more of a (dis)belief actually: I find most scenarios
Spoiler
concerning LF's demise at the hands of Sansa to be unconvincing. Yes, she's learning to be a player and yes, it would make an unexpected ending - only it isn't unexpected now that the majority of readers dream of it. The more I analize GRRM's writing style, the more I see that he just doesn't play by our exectations. Cersei is on Arya's list but I'm 100% sure Arya will not be the one to kill her, just like she didn't kill Joffrey or the Hound. Yes, some retribution is needed in this series, but the way I see it Sansa is actually becoming LF's 'partner in crime', if anything. And while we're on the topic of Sansa, here is a confession: I actually wish for her to remain married to Tyrion, I personally think it would be a plus for the narative. She's getting paired up with just about anyone, but I see no satisfying explanation as to why or how her marriage should/could be annuled. Plus, ever since her interactions with the Hound in ACoK, it seemed obvious she wouldn't find her Prince Charming, au contraire, or - if she finds someone to love and who loves her back - he would be anything but the man she originally dreamed of.
I hear you, and point well made. My problem with Sansa's character is the constant need to deny wrongs around her and
her role in what resulted. There is a strong hatred of ASOIAF Sansa, I knew of it before I read the books. When I did ,I
understood her as her POV allowed. A very young lady with hopes and dreams as should befit most her age. Her father
may have misjudged at times for what remains accurate in assessment which differs a bit from being true. The challenge
it seems is to achieve balance or strive for it*. Given Sansa's individual POV she chose accordingly to betray her father's wish
to leave King's Landing in private. What's a child to do ? I wouldn't want to be in her place. Arya is repressing her feelings
but she allows in and remains connected to who she is and survives because of her choices.
Spoiler
Sansa is moving with the pace
of LF and will not move far from comfort
. Yet from what I've heard she is moving forward and growing up in the process.
I never understood the Catelyn or Sansa hate lurking among readers, no one is perfect because life isn't supposed to be.
Sansa knows that by now too. I recall when starting ASOIAF my perception of good vs bad had to be abandoned and labels
ignored as I read. This was difficult at first because I was beginning to favour the Starks. I had to accept that (as most people
are) the flaws that are part of their design. There exist also incredible cruelty and beautiful wonder in the magic that inspires
hope. I just decided to become neutral an allow the events to unfold. I got through reading about
Spoiler
Walder Frey
, I suppose
I'm ready for anything now. * insight and wisdom
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:36:50 AM
Macha, a woman understands your point regarding visceral versus mental appreciation of a character. Perhaps this woman likes Arya because, even though I was the younger sister I had to defend my older sister from bullies and so respect the "little warrior" that is Arya. So, I relate to her more than some other characters that are more "ladylike," which is fine too but not always my own style either (a part-time tomboy).
With Sansa, it would be a natural progression for her to become more of
Spoiler
a partner to LF (as she really is a partner in hiding his murderous ways), but only until she can see a way out and away from him into a more safe situation. She does not trust him, and I do not believe she will ever love him. That's going to be a messy situation for a while. Sansa's hatred for Lannisters really is in the way of her ever being a good marital partner for Tyrion if that were ever to be possible again. There may be a "divorce" for those such as Sansa - we just don't know of it yet. The king can make any decree it seems, so once she gets a friendly king on her side that marriage may be put aside quite easily if the situation presents itself. She would need to go through a drastic internal change to ever accept a real marriage to Tyrion in any case, but who knows?
Anything could happen.
So true. GoT Arya said " anyone can be killed ". These two grew up in such perilous of times and choices to make
that proved their strengths and weaknesses. Rewards and Punishments, sometimes it's enough knowing you've
survived.
Spoiler
There was some internet chatter that Sansa goes back to Winterfell to rebuilt as Arya finds her destiny
elsewhere.
What will GRRM write next ?
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:39:17 AM
Hmm, just realized I can't quote two different posts in my reply.
MrsHghar wrote:
Spoiler
Sansa's hatred for Lannisters really is in the way of her ever being a good marital partner for Tyrion if that were ever to be possible again.
Yes, this is a huge impediment, I remember reading
Spoiler
hers and Tyrion's chapters while they were married and just clawing at my face in frustration. Not because I want them together, nothing of the sort, simply because they both had a few good chances of reaching out and comfort one another. One of the resons I'd prefer them to remain married is because I'd like for them to meet again, this time with a better timing. Tyrion obviously liked her well enough, though he was still very much in love with Shae at the time. Sansa resented him, and his physical appearance only enhanced that, same as with the Hound, but the way I see Sansa's future, she should be able to appreciate other qualities in a man, other than beauty, enough to care for (if not love).
This reminds me, have we encountered a case of divorce in the ASOIAF world before?
I'm drawing a blank right now.
Wildseed, about Catelyn and Sansa. I know this always ruffles a few feathers, but I will say it loud an clear, for as long as I live. With Catelyn, this is a typical example of not only lack of empathy, but also of judging a character based solely on his/her interactions with a character you love, or pity (in this case first Jon, then possibly Tyrion). With Sansa, I find it quite amusing, seing how most girls tend to go through exactly the same phase as she did. IMHO, Sansa is simply an easy prey because GRRM keeps reminding us constantly the differences between her and Arya, a fan favourite.
GoT confession, this time regarding the fandom: I cannot even begin to describe how ridiculous I find Jorah's description - by some fans - as a "creepy pedo".
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:41:05 AM
Sansa and Tyrion's marriage would not be hard to have annuled at all, seeing as there is the grounds of non-consumation.
I freakin admire Tywin and if I had lived in a medieval political world he would be my role model. He might be a failure as a family man but that's where his failings stop.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:41:33 AM
__________________
AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
GoT confession: I keep googling Jaime's name every time I have to write it, just to make sure I get it right. And I always keep forgetting. See, I just googled him right now. And now I feel bad because I can never close a page that shows NCW just like that. Le sigh.
-- Edited by Macha on Saturday 25th of August 2012 01:59:42 PM
Oh I'm with you there DNA.... I'd rather they did without huge chunks over story if they just got the wolves in ... ok well maybe not... but I do love wolves... and part of the GoT experience is all of that .. ness.. wolves.. n.. that...
-- Edited by YvyB on Saturday 25th of August 2012 07:50:20 PM
Ok my GoT confession is .... I really bonded with Cat, She is nearest to me in every way. One reason in perticular but I won't share that one. Her Teenage boy questioning all the time and not needing her any more, her teenage daughter thinking she's a woman grown. All the decisions she made. Her grief. I could go on. Enough to say when I read Cat hate I get really upset! Ha ! Me a woman grown!! Oh yeah and I hate it when they call her CATlyn.. Done.
GoT confession: I never cared for the direwolves or the dragons that much. And this is coming from a huge dog lover and owner. I'm very curious to see what are the implications of Ghost being an albino (because I definitely think there's something there) and seeing what becomes of
Spoiler
Nymeria and her pack (her ferociousness has to lead up to something), but frankly I thought GRRM's decision of giving not one, but three of the Stark children (that we know of, I'm not sure about Rickon) warg abilities was a bit too much. I can definitely see warging as being extremely important to Bran's storyline, possibly even for Jon (as of ADwD), but I confess I cringe a bit at the thought of a Stark warging a dragon.
, Ugh, too much badassery for my taste.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:45:21 AM
One more... I keep saying Black Watch instead of Night's Watch! Oh yeah and I too had a mini crush on Charles Dance... those eyes.... you'd be like , yes I'm sorry! Even if you hadn't done anything lol
Off topic a sec... when he does the piece about the French.. walking around naked from the waste down... Ha ha ! Hating their art... making love all day...etc. Love it :)
Back on point , when you go to the garden center and see stone statues and think .. Lannister, Targ, Oh there's Tyrion.... ha ha
Off topic a sec... when he does the piece about the French.. walking around naked from the waste down... Ha ha ! Hating their art... making love all day...etc. Love it :)
Back on point , when you go to the garden center and see stone statues and think .. Lannister, Targ, Oh there's Tyrion.... ha ha
I'd just like to confess that I also loved that scen and cried some man tears when Stannis asked "where is your god now." Think it was absolutely in character for him and I'll defend that statement till I die.
__________________
AS private parts we are to the gods, they play with us for their sport.
I'd just like to confess that I also loved that scen and cried some man tears when Stannis asked "where is your god now." Think it was absolutely in character for him and I'll defend that statement till I die.
This has NOTHING to do with the show, where Maisie Williams is fantastic and I love her to bits. This is strictly about the character in the books. 
Tyrion, my man Tyrion ! If not for him I would be considered an Imp. Seriously Tyrion is Intelligent,
Dare Challenge the COTF spokesperson ?
You stole the words right out of my mouth. 
With Catelyn, this is a typical example of not only lack of empathy, but also of judging a character based solely on his/her interactions with a character you love, or pity (in this case first Jon, then possibly Tyrion). With Sansa, I find it quite amusing, seing how most girls tend to go through exactly the same phase as she did. IMHO, Sansa is simply an easy prey because GRRM keeps reminding us constantly the differences between her and Arya, a fan favourite. 
. In his defense these were loaded scenes and moments to convey a secret that could
