I said in other thread: "there´s no strong female characters in ASoIaF".And also said that I would explain myself. So, here it comes. Please, forgive my English:
I said Iwould try toexplain myposition on women´s strength in ASOIAF and GoT. I started writing it and this is what came out, more or less. It´smessybutI hope you understand(and throw your tomatoes at me if needed).
Perhaps it´s true, as Macha says, thatArya is written to be pleasant, maybe too much. What I like about Arya, although what I´m about to say may sound crazy, is that herlost childin aterrifyingworld situation is completely real. Wait . I too was very curious when I realized it because I think Martin is not a great female-character writer (and let alone child characters) and ended up thinking that maybe Arya was just a fluke. Many times my arguments are born from intuition and then I find it hard to change them, but this is not the case. One would think that abandoned or left alone children like Arya, are very vulnerable and they are, of course, but you would be surprised (if you don´t know already) how tough and how capable they are to survive almost any bad situation. They can be ferocious. I say this because I see it happen. No kidding. But hey, Aryaisa girland I'm trying to write aboutthe women in thisstory. Besidesshe is never completely alone so, love you Arya but you still have to grow (so that I can be harsh with you too).
Tir, I have toquote you here (kinda) because you said you like Catelyn especially in relation to Jon... and right now I´m thinking how subjective is everything and how experience has to do with points of view and that´s what ruins debates. I´m saying this because what I want is that my opinions don´t turn out aggressive and for you all to know and don´t forget that I'm being very personal here, feeling things from my own experience. And I´m not a sanctimonious twat, I promess. At least, I´m trying no to be. Well, here I go (again):
Not anymore, but I hated Catelyn in the books and even more on the show (love the actress though), just for her relationship with Jon... and for some other reasons in common with the other women. So start with her allows me to clarify a bit what a strong woman is to me.So thanks Tir and I´m sorry (prepará esos ladrillos).
A strong woman don´t hold grudges against a child for mistakes that said child is not responsible for. Thatis petty, crueland irrational. A strong woman to me should be able to transcend the pettiness, not saying that she should be perfect and not feel it (I do feel it too),I´m saying one should be able to transcend it. Myother problem withCatelynis the sameI have withmost women(and men) in this story.
And my problem is obviously not with characters but with the author. It has a bad smell of Hegel (or Plato?) this story and I can not reconcile myself with that odor, Hodor. The little space that victims and weakest people occupy in Martin´s writing drives me nuts. This Westeros society is a society where the only ones with class consciousness (is this the right expression?) are the powerful ones. And I hate that.Yes, I know, luckily there areother characters whoseem to have a proper sense, their own view of life, but not sure if it gets to deepen. Andthisisa big problemfor me withthis author: too many charactersand not toodeep ones. Maybe that's why the characters that interest me most are the secondary and the wildlings ( the freer and equal society in this story IMO), because although they are not deepened at least they act more as a group (and they are funny). But I digress, I know.
As I said, this is an aspect of both female and male characters but I dislike it in women more because it is assumed that we are more sensitive and . Bullshit. That´s what Martin is saying for me. Bullshit. Is like he´s saying: “you women are worse”. “You´are weak and elitist, and petty and crazy, and dangerous and useless”. Is like he´s whispering that shit in my non feminist ear. Yes, I´m not a feminist, I´m just a woman.Not only I'm not a feminist, I don´t like the feminism discourse either, I think it is also elitist shit. Did you ever read a feminist author? It is assumed that feminism in practice must, among other things, help create awareness among less educated women who are always more exposed to abuse and what not ... well I will give a trophy to the woman who understands when feminists speaks or write. No fucking way. A complete failure they are. The way in which feminist use academic language to talk about everyday and painful conflicts makes me sick. They don´t have a fucking clue . They never bury their legs in the mud of everyday life. It´s nothing more than a joke, is snobbish and cruel.But I digress, again. Sorry. Oh, I remember now. I did have a point. I agree with some feminist in one thing: no matter what class you belong, the womanis always the black of the world, on wealth or poverty. I say this because I want you to know that I will consider this when writing about women in ASOIAF. Probably not prevent me from being unfair, but I'll keep it in mind.
Martin confuses dignity with class pride in their characters. When LF takes Catelyn to the brothel she´s (and also Ned) not angry about a matter of personal dignity but only out of pride. What harm does to your dignity to stay a few hours in a brothel if you're not to work in it? .That is class pride, is weakness to me.
Tir said Catelynis the way she is with Jon to defend her children. But why? (*looks to the heavens with hands in a gesture of supplication*). What evil Jon could do to her children if they love each other like true brothers? In fact, Jon seems to be the favourite to everyone of them (maybe not Sansa). Tir I´m sorry I´m using your words, but I really don´t believe in this. This time is class fear what motivates her. The lord of her household would be a bastard?…oh my, how humiliating to her old noble family . Her pride is wounded, nothing more. She assumes that Ned wallowed (?) with some wench and now she has to bear with his bastard. Terrible. Plus she don´t even knew who´s the honorable old Nedwas. She´s blinded by resentment (not a nice thing) and she takes it out on a poor child.
When she orders Tyrion´s arrest I also believe it´s because her class pride is wounded, yes, I know, don´t bite I know is because she thinks Tyrion is responsible for Bran´s "accident" but she can´t be so sure, she´s reckless because she can be, because she´s a lady and can command men in the name of her father, if she wants. You know, the notion of debt and aid between aristocratic families. She uses her privileges without thinking and that´s what leads her to revenge, to behave like the rest of the men around her: her husband, her father, her brother, her uncle (sorry Blackfish, I love you). If you are proud people you will understand what I'm saying. I´m a very proud person and my pride make me blind and I do stupid shit because of that. Yes, if you hurt someone I love I would also lose my shit. For me, what happens to Catelyn is a little bit of both. Pride and desperation. (ha! sorry Miss Austen).
She acts without thinking or by privilege or egotism (when she is with Robb and thinks that her daughters are more important than everyone else) because she believes was raised for something else to go and live in the fucking north to raise children for a man she thinks cheated on her (and not her first choice, mind you). And if Martin wasn´tMartin, she would have every right to believe she´s more capable than some men around her, don´t get me wrong here, please. And the truth is the show didn´t do any favors to Catelyn in that regard. She behaves like a frustrated woman who has skills to something else, to have another kind of life, but the society of her time don´t allow it and she believes she has accepted this fate. But she´s frustrated (kinda) like Cersei is. That is weakness to me.
Maybe I identify strength with rebellion (and this is blinding me) and don´t think I can accept the argument that at that time (which is no real historical time) women could not do otherwise. Great women have existedin all ages (Joan of Arc, Simone Weil, Rosa Luxemburgo, Juana Azurduy, Lou Andreas Salome, Eva Peron, Matilde Montoya, Marie Curie, Boudica, Mary Wollstonecraft, Susan Anthony, I don´t know, privileged or not, there were millions).
I can not find the strength in accepting (half accepting in this case) a life that fate holds for you, (and then be resentful for that), without having tried something else before, especially if your social status is privileged. If you had the misfortune of being born without privilege, in ignorance and misery, is perfectly reasonable. Otherwise not so much. I know, I just realized how complex this character is and how bad Martin has written her (and D&D unable to understand her either, made the character even more obscure). Poor Cat.
But as I said, this has to do with the way I see the world. Rebellion for me is perhaps the greatest sign of strength there is. And it is easier for me to excuse a cowardly man than a proud and sometimes irrational woman (well, not all the time). Ok, enough, I will let Catelyn alone, I suddenly feelsorry for her.
I don´t really like Asha in the books but in the show she is not so stereotypical. I don´t know how D&D willdeveloped her character but so far I think maybe there issome spark in her, but not because she is a warrior and behaves like a man, but because in the last dialogue with Theon she showed something more, some rebellion with his personal history, some disagreement, some kind of awareness. We'll see what happens to her. *lighting a candle for her*.
To Sansa: I would give her a couple of slaps. As someone said in another thread, I didn´t like her at all at first and then I began to change my mind. Ummmmm, no, actually.I think what I really feel about her is compasion. Her problem will be the same of her mother´s. Sansa (for now) has a clear sense of belonging to a class, even one that haunts her and made a captive/slave of her. And when the time comes to learn something from all this suffering, I fear she will become frustrated and bitter and believe that cruelty is the way out. There´s nothing good to learn from LF, right?.
Brienne. The same thing thatI like about heris what Ireject: Her loyalty. Loyalty isan important valuefor me. I think it'shard to beloyal, itrequiresstrength, will power etc. But I can not help identifying her loyalty with certain stupidity. I think that time I discussed this with Macha she told me that after all blind loyalty is Brienne´s job. Maybe you´re right Macha. I don´t know. I think she “needs” to obey, she didn´t obey her father, which is great, good for her, but is like she could not forgive herself for that and left home to obey the entire world instead. Men and women. I would say to her: Show some spark girl, please. But there you go again: my theme is rebellion againstthe circumstances. And Brienneisalso a privileged woman. But I like her... when she is with Jaime. She makes me laugh (the way Stannis makes me laugh).
Cersei. Oh Cersei. Maybe she is the worst and yet the only one that I pity, not sympathy for her, no, but pity. I think she is pathetic. She believesshe is much better than she actually is and to me this is Martin again in my face saying: “women are useless, wretched things, cruel and dangerous and fanatical and super emotional and brainless”. Fuck you, señor. And he use Cersei as an example: a privileged and beautiful woman who has always sought the opportunity for power in her life, and when she finds it, makes shit after shit because she can´t stop behaving like the stereotype she represents. More frustration, more resentment. The more power, less rational. Well, that's not out of place, finally she reacts as almost any man in power. She's not better, she is just as crazy as them. I would settle with this if any other woman of power in this story could act with intelligence (looking at you Dany). But hey! Write your own story sister!. Cersei is a woman only in regard to their children. And to protect their children, rather, to retain the privilege of her family in her children, she commits any cruelty she pleases. I don´t see the strength. I only see privilege and power (but “power is power”, silly).
Ok, I´m so tired right now. And still there´s Daenerys and Margaery and ugh… I don´t know, maybe this is just enough. I feel very silly right now, making arguments… Do you hate my guts already?
Macha, I think there´s only one spoiler. If there´s more, please let me know or put the spoiler tags where you think it need to be placed. Thanks so much for your encouragement.
-- Edited by andrea on Thursday 30th of August 2012 04:30:46 PM
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:07:13 AM
-- Edited by andrea on Saturday 1st of September 2012 09:29:27 PM
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
Andrea, muy bien. Muchas gracias. Esta es muy trabaja!
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Thursday 30th of August 2012 04:12:43 PM
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
Hey, Andrea, what happens in the confessions thread stays in the confessions thread!
I feel compeled to clarify briefly (I gotta go in a minute) the Catelyn bit. You see, I don't see Catelyn as a hero. I don't see her as an example. I didn't even call her strong, whatever that is. I said I love her. Like I love many other characters in the book...
I love her because she's very human, she's flawed, raw, full of emotion, contradictions, internal battles, strength and weaknesses. I find her very real. I find in her many people I know. Even bits of me that I don't like. And in my opinion that's what makes the character excellently writen.
Gotta go now. Will come back on this later, it's a very intersting topic.
oh I know Tir, that was the reason I apologized with you, because what you said was like a trigger. I think I understand what you meant but I re-used it at my convenience. As you see I too have bits of Catelyn I don´t like. Damn pride.
-- Edited by andrea on Thursday 30th of August 2012 05:49:56 PM
__________________
"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
While I love Martin's work as a whole (why else would we be here?), I do not find him without fault, far from it. I have a lot of pet peeves when it comes to his characters and the way they're being perceived (not his fault, I know, or is it?). For example, I find Tyrion to be quite a misogynistic character, yet he's an easy one to defend, isn't he?
Is like he´s whispering that shit in my non feminist ear. Yes, I´m not a feminist, I´m just a woman. Not only I'm not a feminist, I don´t like the feminism discourse either, I think it is also elitist shit.
I laughed out loud at this, it's a blunt manner of putting it but oh, so very true to my ears. I don't consider myself to be a feminist either, actually my skin crawls at the sound of it. Also, I'd like to be able to enjoy a good joke on the internet without having politically correctness shoved in my face. I honestly believe I'm a well educated, respectful person, capable of a huge amount of empathy. If I can be nice to someone, I will, it doesn't cost me anything. However, I'm so tired of this "we can't laugh at rainbows because rainbows have feelings too and they've been oppressed for the last three centuries on account of being rainbows."
Martin confuses dignity with class pride in their characters. When LF takes Catelyn to the brothel she´s (and also Ned) not angry about a matter of personal dignity but only out of pride. What harm does to your dignity to stay a few hours in a brothel if you're not to work in it? .That is class pride, is weakness to me.
Hmm, this is an interesting take, one I've never encountered in this fandom so far, and I have to digest it better before answering.
I agree with you, though. I never liked Catelyn, I never hated her. I usually don't like it when people judge her over her attitude towards Jon because most of the times I find the arguments to be rather infantile (oh but we like Jon, poor puppy!) but you are certainly right, it was petty of her to take her grievances out on Jon, when it should have been Ned. It's like she forgave him, but not the child. Really?!
I disagree however with your take on the reasons she decides to capture Tyrion.
When she orders Tyrion´s arrest I also believe it´s because her class pride is wounded, yes, I know, don´t bite I know is because she thinks Tyrion is responsible for Bran´s "accident" but she can´t be so sure, she´s reckless because she can be, because she´s a lady and can command men in the name of her father, if she wants.
Reading those chapters a second time now, it seemed pretty obvious to me that she was indeed certain that he was behind Bran's assassination attempt. She only starts questioning her judgement on their way to the Eyrie, if I remember correctly. Put that next to the chapter when she's nursing Bran earlier on and it becomes clear just how affected she was (and can we blame her?) by the whole thing. I also don't find Catelyn to be a frustrated woman because she is prevented to reach her full potential (in a Cersei-like manner). I just didn't perceive her as such while reading her chapters, in fact she always seemed to be rather content with her place, and women's place in society, simply because she was raised to be a dutiful wife and mother. Look at how she sees Brienne, or Jeyne. She finds Brienne endearing because she reminds her of Arya, however Catelyn didn't exactly support Arya's individuality. She looks at Jeyne and all she sees is a dutiful wife to Robb and a potential child bearer. On a personal level, Catelyn reminds me a great deal of my grandmother. Both beautiful, intelligent women, whom sometimes I think of as strong, sometimes as weak. I guess you can be both, it all depends on the angle you're viewing things from.
I don´t really like Asha in the books but in the show she is not so stereotypical. I don´t know how D&D willdeveloped her character but so far I think maybe there issome spark in her, but not because she is a warrior and behaves like a man, but because in the last dialogue with Theon she showed something more, some rebellion with his personal history, some disagreement, some kind of awareness.
I like how you phrased that last bit, and I agree with eveything here. I firmly believe that the show often improved GRRM's characterization, and this is one fine example, even though it seems tha fandom is split on Yara's portrayal. I actually like both her portrayal, and the writing.
I think that time I discussed this with Macha she told me that after all blind loyalty is Brienne´s job. Maybe you´re right Macha. I don´t know. I think she “needs” to obey, she didn´t obey her father, which is great, good for her, but is like she could not forgive herself for that and left home to obey the entire world instead.
Yes, we disagree on Brienne, but I'll try and make my point better, because at WiC I couldn't really debate this properly. The way I see things is this. I think we, as readers, perceive Brienne as acting stupid because at the point of her introduction we're already familiar with GRRM's world. To the viewers eyes, Brienne looks damned from the start. She appears to be naive and foolish, yet I have re-read her chapters in AFfC many times and I can say this: she is neither. She has good instincts most of the time, and is very cautious. She is afraid, and she fights it, she educates herself on how to be strong, both physically and emotionally. She thinks things through and has a strong moral code. She doesn't compromise (I expect she will have to, there is no way she'll leave Jaime helpless before Lady Stoneheart), and she's very compassionate, even if - after all she's been through - she could very easily become a hateful person. I never saw her as a woman in need of a man, or a master of some sorts, to obey. Knighthood is just as much her "job", to put it in more modern terms, as it is her way of life, her moral code. She is the one holding the reines. She chose to enter Renly's service because she loved him, there is no denying. She was young, and hurting. However, she chose to enter Catelyn's service because Catelyn helped her, and was nice to her, and she wanted revenge for the king she genuinly believed in. She only entered Jaime's service once Jaime proved himself worthy of her service. She respects him, and he is in no way her protector, there is no actual subbordination here.
Cersei. Oh Cersei. Maybe she is the worst and yet the only one that I pity, not sympathy for her, no, but pity. I think she is pathetic. She believesshe is much better than she actually is and to me this is Martin again in my face saying: “women are useless, wretched things, cruel and dangerous and fanatical and super emotional and brainless”.
I think with Cersei it all depends on the angle you wish to view things from. To me, Cersei is one of those characters that truly embodies a concept, or a problem, I don't quite know how to phrase it. My point is: you feel like GRRM wanted to say 'look, women are emotional and brainless'. I feel like the point GRRM was trying to make with Cersei is beat us over the head with a literary motif - physical beauty that hides a rotten soul. When I re-read AFfC the Cersei-Jaime-Brienne trio became even more poignant than on a first read. Cersei is everything that Brienne isn't, and vice versa. This becomes so evident in Jaime's chapters, when his thoughts shift from one to the other. The way I see it, GRRM was writing a beautiful discourse on beauty here. True beauty.
Of course, characters will always tell different readers different things, so these are only my impressions. I'll end this comment here, because I already lost track of many of the things I originally wanted to say, but they'll come back to me, I can keep going.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:08:19 AM
Hey, Andrea, what happens in the confessions thread stays in the confessions thread!
I feel compeled to clarify briefly (I gotta go in a minute) the Catelyn bit. You see, I don't see Catelyn as a hero. I don't see her as an example. I didn't even call her strong, whatever that is. I said I love her. Like I love many other characters in the book...
I love her because she's very human, she's flawed, raw, full of emotion, contradictions, internal battles, strength and weaknesses. I find her very real. I find in her many people I know. Even bits of me that I don't like. And in my opinion that's what makes the character excellently writen.
Gotta go now. Will come back on this later, it's a very intersting topic.
__________________
“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
I have already shared my thoughts on Arya and Sansa in an earlier related thread.
The only thing I found difficult to accept was Catelyn's blatant disrespect towards Jon. I get that she felt betrayed, and reminded often because of his presence. However as a mother that takes on motherless child the world moves with a different perspective. She presents as most ASOIAF characters, a woman designed of strengths and flaws. Her Tully family devotion and political world insights were a product of her class and status befitting a wife of a major house lord. She also brought to the table a warmth that her other children knew well. Yet after a few books we are still lacking the details of Cate's life ( and no more than most of GRRM's characters ), aside from her betrothal to Brandon and then Ned. I viewed her as a principled woman of her class that did not shy away from challenge. Unlike most trailblazers though, she respected decorum and complied with the laws of those times. I always felt that GRRM tried too hard in highlighting her emotions towards Jon to demonstrate her pettiness, revealing a weak point. We only have Littlefinger POV to offer glimpses of earlier years but fail to illustrate her motivations in life. The POV did well to illustrate his aspirations really We know that she was a devoted wife and daughter.
As for Lysa Tully -Arryn, disregard everything I said above. Lysa was so unprincipled that she did unspeakable things to be noticed or loved. She found status by birth and marriage but lacked moral courage and intellect as her sister. I could not redeem this character, she was beneath me. In fact I have better admiration of Cersei than I do her.
Cersei is a topic unto herself and will continue to be discussed long after her death.
Brienne is a shorter passage but will wait for another post.
There are a few I've omitted but for now I'm really interested in emerging characters like Osha, Asha, Myranda Val, Gilly, the new mistress of Thenns, the Sand Snakes of house Martell, lady Merryweather, the Whore of Volantis , Arianne . Just to name a few.
I am always intrigued by Melissandre and more often what she sees and thinks in private or in talks with Jon Snow.When introduced, I quickly grew weary of her hero worship to Stannis and bitter taste after the scene with maester Cressen. Mel is deep, yet somehow I am not certain she is fully wise to her role in the upcoming events. As a follower of Rh'llor should she be better aware of the Seers, the blood of the dragon, and other mystic influences ( puzzle piece ). Or typical in ignoring existence of those entities in order to devote herself to her God. Is she weaker than Vaquerro ? Thoros? How does her faith or gift measure up. was there a warning to Bran about her ( bringing on darkness vs light )? Something tells me with her placement in respect to Jon, she remains an essential character. Will GRRM kill her off before we understand fully ourselves ?
Ladies I care not for ; lady Dustin, Lysa, Jeyne Westerling's mother, any female Frey, the Queen of Thorns on a bad day or social gathering.
Unsure; lady Margaery , Myranda of the Vale, Khaleesi's mother in law, et.al
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:09:00 AM
Sorry for initially editing the posts and adding spoiler tags, everyone. I was under the impression that this thread was started in the show section of the forum. We won't need to use spoilers from now on.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:08:38 AM
Sorry for initially editing the posts and adding spoiler tags, everyone. I was under the impression that this thread was started in the show section of the forum. We won't need to use spoilers from now on.
-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 04:08:38 AM
No problem about the spoiler tags. I have to go, like NOW, but Macha, it´s my fault, I did not pay attention to the topic. Move the post where you want (to the show). I don´t have time now, I realized the text is a mess, some words have no space between them. Maybe I canfix it tomorrow or sunday (city weekend for me).
__________________
"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
Wildseed, I originally thought this was for the TV section, and used spoiler tags. Then realized this is the book section and removed them. As the 'spark' that started this thread was andrea's take on the way GRRM writes women (and not the adaptation per se) I think we should leave this thread where it currently is and NOT use spoiler tags, we can discuss book events freely, same as with the other book threads.
-- Edited by Macha on Saturday 1st of September 2012 05:15:03 AM
I'm confused about the editing of post here, is this topic for the television series or ASOIAF ? I thought both from the Topic Heading with Book Discussion ( which may include spoilers by default ). Please clarify. Spoiler tags are okay though if the rules here are to include them, but I'm really confused about the editing of posts.
Don't love Catelyn but understand her completely. I like the HBO one much more. I always liked Brienne, book or HBO. I enjoy the Lady of Bear Island and her daughter - they are very enjoyable. Really looking forward to the sand snakes though and hope HBO does a good job of them.
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Saturday 1st of September 2012 03:30:56 AM
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
Lyanna brought up a point I forgot about when writing my first reply, which is the fine ladies of Bear Island. Now If we can't find some strong female characters (albeit minor) there, I don't know if we'll find any. With Commander Mormont on the Wall and Jorah in exile, this is probably the only matriarchal system featured in the series. They're brave, fierce and loyal, they're mothers and warrios alike, and seem to care nothing for traditional gender roles. I particularly loved Martin's little touch with "it is said Maege Mormont took a bear as her lover", showing just how puzzled (even frightened) the men of Westeros are when dealing with sexual liberation.
I keep attempting to read you post Andrea, but I'm sorry, the tomatoes are just too distracting !
I have dipped in several times now, and can't see your point at all ? How are these woman not " Strong"?
To me they all have great strengths and weaknesses both, is that not true of us all?
I feel I must be missing something, Sorry .
the tomatoes I can delete, no problem, about my point I am not at my PC and this keyboard is a nightmare. I will try later or tomorrow. But I really do not know if i have something to say. In fact I think I am regretting having written this.
__________________
"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
I keep attempting to read you post Andrea, but I'm sorry, the tomatoes are just too distracting !
I have dipped in several times now, and can't see your point at all ? How are these woman not " Strong"?
To me they all have great strengths and weaknesses both, is that not true of us all?
I feel I must be missing something, Sorry .
the tomatoes I can delete, no problem, about my point I am not at my PC and this keyboard is a nightmare. I will try later or tomorrow. But I really do not know if i have something to say. In fact I think I am regretting having written this.
Don't regret my dear lady Andrea, you were just sharing your POV. This is not a college debate class so
no worries. I read the topic outline and commented after scanning a few posts above mine. Not all
my meanderings resonate with everyone here either. We are a community of respect and courtesy for
sharing and having fun doing so. I apologize for not taking note of your premise before commenting
because of the flashing red things too, now that I read YvyB's comments I had to agree with her points
as well. Please don't take offense as I've mentioned , your posts are welcomed and I' really certain lady
YvyB feels that does too . So hug yourself for me and keep reading. Ummmm......is there a way to
get rid of the flashing red thingeys ? I've wanted to edit posts too afterwards and found no way of
addressing it. Let's go beat up the Warden shall we (?) Bring your armour !
Don't regret my dear lady Andrea, you were just sharing your POV. This is not a college debate class so no worries. I read the topic outline and commented after scanning a few posts above mine. Not all my meanderings resonate with everyone here either. We are a community of respect and courtesy forsharing and having fun doing so. I apologize for not taking note of your premise before commenting because of the flashing red things too, now that I read YvyB's comments I had to agree with her points as well. Please don't take offense as I've mentioned , your posts are welcomed and I' really certain lady YvyB feels that does too . So hug yourself for me and keep reading. Ummmm......is there a way to get rid of the flashing red thingeys ? I've wanted to edit posts too afterwards and found no way of addressing it. Let's go beat up the Warden shall we (?) Bring your armour!feels
Wildseed no need to apologize, it doesn´t offend me at all that people disagree with me. Regarding my language in “that” post and my mistrust for educated debates: I think if I had been less emphatic and blunt (and messy, and long I know) maybe I would have been sounded more friendly or whatever but this is something I do on purpose because academic language drives me mad and I hate to sound like a pretentious twat. I have a struggle with language in that sense (with my own language to start) because I teach and I´m a fanatic student so I always want/need to be clear. Ha! Funny, because I do it for people to understand me better and the result is quite the opposite. Who knows, right? Plus, I have to write in English here which is a big effort for me. A big plus: Writing style and humor suffer greatly in translations (not that I have a writing style nor humor in english). It's inevitable.
All is fine, don´t worry. When I wrote this damn thing I assumed no one would agree with me… so I immediately regretted not because you (all) would not agree but because it has no point and I ended up feeling guilty to spoil the party. Here is the thing: I came to this board because all of you seem to be nice people... nice people who love GRRM ´s work but sadly, my enthusiasm with this story is evaporated. I grew weary of its mysteries and intrigues and don´t like the man either (which it doesn´t help), so I´m biased. Didn´t realized how much I don´t care anymore, till now. I think what´s left is that I am hooked with the amazing cast of the TV series.
Then, there´s people: I get the impression that many of you came here hoping to find nice people to talk about this story you love and to be free of sharing other things you like (not possible at Wic´s). And I had to open my mouth to say negative things in a negative way. It´s a bummer. Not a big deal I guess but it can be annoying. So, it has no point for me, let alone for you, if I keep talking/writing about something I don´t like anymore. It´s nonsense, a waste of time. I mean, this is a fan site and I´m not one. So, my bad.
Let´s talk about something else and Macha, if you don´t mind I ask you to delete my comment, please (or is it yours now? Oops, you tricked me). I wonder if this should be in Got´s confessions???
Oh, Wildseed you can edit. Look uptothe right: it´s abutton that says"More": thereyou have theoption to edit, I use itall the time for typos. Maybe you have some kind of weird system and can´t see it, but it´s there.
-- Edited by andrea on Sunday 2nd of September 2012 03:50:41 PM
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
I keep attempting to read you post Andrea, but I'm sorry, the tomatoes are just too distracting !
I have dipped in several times now, and can't see your point at all ? How are these woman not " Strong"?
To me they all have great strengths and weaknesses both, is that not true of us all?
I feel I must be missing something, Sorry .
Maybenot your caseoranyone else'sherebut what I'm readingand hearingalmosteverywhere and on TV (D&D, the actors, etc) is how strong these women are and my point is that for me, they are not, because IMO strength is tied to the challenge of personal circumstances, a certain defiance. I did not say (or did not meant) that none of the women in this story are strong, there are some on which I still have doubts. I was referring mostly to main female characters (up to the fifth book). My other point is that I believe Martin doesn´t write female characters in depth (nor children either, except Arya). Or maybe that I don´t like what can be read between the lines about women in this story. I hope this clarifies a bit. But if you want, read my reply to Wildseed and you'll notice there are other reasons as well.
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
Everyone should be able to edit their posts by selecting More - Edit post (Next to Reply and Quote). Hah, andrea, I thought of other examples , will write a longer post tomorrow. We'll just play here among ourselves, I love this topic and your very original take on some of the characters.
Andrea I am a fan but not a obsessed one. Their are many flaws is GRRM's work. I said many times before that life is and people are full of flaws as are the people whom write about them.
I wish that GRRM writes of a female ( tragic hero or leader ) that is respected and challenges the status quo as her potential pushes her. I wrote about this in an earlier thread about Stannis. Right now Danerys has me going bonkers although I admire her tenacity. She is after all a very young woman snd somewhat catered to to because of her status. Cersei is a disgrace to me. She takes her strength from malice and petty /emotional bullshit. When challenged she uses the place between her legs instead or the place between her ears. Lady Dustin makes my skin crawl.
Aside from Targaryeon princesses ( like the one that awarded the " Gift" to the NightsWatch ) or Cate, Arya, Melissandre, the ladies of Dorne ( I named from previous posts ) that challenge according to their rank in life. I still maintain their strength in character, which to me counts for very much.
Lyanna brought up a point I forgot about when writing my first reply, which is the fine ladies of Bear Island. Now If we can't find some strong female characters (albeit minor) there, I don't know if we'll find any. With Commander Mormont on the Wall and Jorah in exile, this is probably the only matriarchal system featured in the series. They're brave, fierce and loyal, they're mothers and warrios alike, and seem to care nothing for traditional gender roles. I particularly loved Martin's little touch with "it is said Maege Mormont took a bear as her lover", showing just how puzzled (even frightened) the men of Westeros are when dealing with sexual liberation.
Many thanks, Lady Macha. I hope Maege and her daughter are cast in S3. I'm looking forward to seeing them and hope their characters are given good scripts for S3.
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
In view of the fact that medieval society had a rather limited view of women's roles in life, a woman thinks GRRM gives them MORE power than they would have had in actual medieval life in real history of the world. The fact that Dany actually believes she has HER OWN claim to the throne, not one that only derives from a male family member, it quite unique. Is life wonderful for women in GRRM's world? Generally no, but a woman has been surprised at how realistic the thoughts are in the female POV chapters and finds their trials and tribulations to be similar to what would have been true in early western civilization within the feudal hierarchy. The fact that there is actually a large area of free people, that's actually fairly progressive considering what the civilized world was really like in similar times. Not that I agree with everything, but it's mostly good enough to keep me wanting to read the books over and over. The characters are well-drawn IMO, and the story line very exciting. OK, I'm a fan girl.
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
Kept. crying. for. no. reason... no, she was probably completely over the lopping off of Ned's head and had gotten used to mental and emotional abuse that was Joffrey.
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"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
Kept. crying. for. no. reason... no, she was probably completely over the lopping off of Ned's head and had gotten used to mental and emotional abuse that was Joffrey.
She even thinks it herself tho' which is what put the flags up for me. and sure enough that night ....I'll have too see if I can find a quote.
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
Yep, and a little more hormonal imbalance and she could have pushed Joffrey off that walkway!
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
Yep, and a little more hormonal imbalance and she could have pushed Joffrey off that walkway!
Ha ha I know! I nearly did it for her!
Yes, right! I read the books so I knew what would happen and I'm still in my living room bouncing on my couch going, "just push him, just push that piece of shit!". This series does that to me. I know what's going to happen, still I rally against it.
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Tuesday 4th of September 2012 12:21:06 PM
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
I know this is not a big thing , but was impressed that he gave Sansa PMS... before her first period ... she kept crying for no reason... not many men would think to do that!
Yep, and a little more hormonal imbalance and she could have pushed Joffrey off that walkway!
I remember that passage well and found my hope swelling to to a crescendo, then.........ending as you quoted. I wonder if we will get to hear more of her story in TWOW.
Davos had such an adventure to be in lord Manderly's company. Such inspiration over a trencher of Sister's Stew with a little history lesson about Ned Stark. " You were never here "
-- Edited by WildSeed on Tuesday 4th of September 2012 03:46:22 PM
Re-reading a Davos chapter now (how can anyone find them boring? they're full of win, that's what they are!), and remembered this young lady. I give you Wylla Manderly.
“Death,” he heard himself say, “there will be death, aye. Your Lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered Lord, your murdered King, your butchered Princes. Vengeance! “Yes,” piped a girl’s voice, thin and high. It belonged to the half-grown child with the blond eyebrows and the long green braid. “They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb,” she said. “He was our King! He was brave and good, and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.” Manderly pulled her close. “Wylla, every time you open your mouth you make me want to send you to the Silent Sisters.” “I only said-“ “We heard what you said,” said the older girl, her sister. “A child’s foolishness. Speak no ill of our friends of Frey. One of them will be your lord and husband soon.” ”No,” the girl declared, shaking her head. “I won’t. I won’t ever. They killed the King. (...) A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the Old Gods and the New. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men.” The maester fingered the chain about his neck. “Solemn oaths were sworn to the House Starks of Winterfell, aye. But Winterfell has fallen and House Stark has been extinguished.” “That’s because they killed them all.”
Don't love Catelyn but understand her completely. I like the HBO one much more. I always liked Brienne, book or HBO. I enjoy the Lady of Bear Island and her daughter - they are very enjoyable. Really looking forward to the sand snakes though and hope HBO does a good job of them.
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Saturday 1st of September 2012 03:30:56 AM
What I'd love to read in WoW - I'm avoiding previews so please don't spoil me! - is for Maege Mormont and her daughter to rescue the GreatJon. Then all of them team up with The Manderly to take care of the Freys. And Roose. In our eagerness to punish the Bastard, we can't forget Roose.
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Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.
In view of the fact that medieval society had a rather limited view of women's roles in life, a woman thinks GRRM gives them MORE power than they would have had in actual medieval life in real history of the world. The fact that Dany actually believes she has HER OWN claim to the throne, not one that only derives from a male family member, it quite unique. Is life wonderful for women in GRRM's world? Generally no, but a woman has been surprised at how realistic the thoughts are in the female POV chapters and finds their trials and tribulations to be similar to what would have been true in early western civilization within the feudal hierarchy. The fact that there is actually a large area of free people, that's actually fairly progressive considering what the civilized world was really like in similar times. Not that I agree with everything, but it's mostly good enough to keep me wanting to read the books over and over. The characters are well-drawn IMO, and the story line very exciting. OK, I'm a fan girl.
Agreed. As much as I despise Dany for being a whiny, privileged little brat (oh, boy now I've done it), her position is uniquely difficult. And Maege Mormont's sexual independence certainly makes her a strong, albeit minor, character to me.
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Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.
Don't love Catelyn but understand her completely. I like the HBO one much more. I always liked Brienne, book or HBO. I enjoy the Lady of Bear Island and her daughter - they are very enjoyable. Really looking forward to the sand snakes though and hope HBO does a good job of them.
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Saturday 1st of September 2012 03:30:56 AM
What I'd love to read in WoW - I'm avoiding previews so please don't spoil me! - is for Maege Mormont and her daughter to rescue the GreatJon. Then all of them team up with The Manderly to take care of the Freys. And Roose. In our eagerness to punish the Bastard, we can't forget Roose.
A woman would love Roose Bolton to be the last flayed man, in his own dungeon.
Don't love Catelyn but understand her completely. I like the HBO one much more. I always liked Brienne, book or HBO. I enjoy the Lady of Bear Island and her daughter - they are very enjoyable. Really looking forward to the sand snakes though and hope HBO does a good job of them.
-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Saturday 1st of September 2012 03:30:56 AM
What I'd love to read in WoW - I'm avoiding previews so please don't spoil me! - is for Maege Mormont and her daughter to rescue the GreatJon. Then all of them team up with The Manderly to take care of the Freys. And Roose. In our eagerness to punish the Bastard, we can't forget Roose.
A woman would love Roose Bolton to be the last flayed man, in his own dungeon.
Right next to Walder Frey that piece of direwolf sh*t.
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
Andrea, you're a peach and you know we often agree en otros lugares , but but but as a pc whining brigade member (so a feminist in Lindee's words), i can assure you there are feminists who are incredible to read, tough women plugged in reality. Angela Davis is one of them (great read btw), Virginie Despentes and her beloved Beatriz Preciado too. I never thought feminism was a gross word, imo, it's only a right's movement in order to speak our own voices, claiming that we have the right to build our lives as we want to, not being spitted up at or mocked or erased because of our vaginas. I admire some french feminists a lot, women like Gisèle HAlimi who did so much for women's rights or Clémentine Autain who fights for rape to be considered a major crime (OMG, speaking of Autain on a GOT forum, life's so weird) . And Femen rock , very guttered ladies, as i feel a coward in everydaylife i admire of these women . That was my cunty aparte !
I'm very shared about the women's questions in ASOIAF. I appreciate of Martin saying that each woman of his world was a complex and different person as women in real life. That there wasn't a pattern of how a woman is supposed to act.
That said a lot of your arguments were really smart and i'll try to developp my thoughts later (cause i'm hungry ) !
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Je voudrais un croissant et une chaussette mignonne...
Andrea, you're a peach and you know we often agree en otros lugares , but but but as a pc whining brigade member (so a feminist in Lindee's words), i can assure you there are feminists who are incredible to read, tough women plugged in reality. Angela Davis is one of them (great read btw), Virginie Despentes and her beloved Beatriz Preciado too. I never thought feminism was a gross word, imo, it's only a right's movement in order to speak our own voices, claiming that we have the right to build our lives as we want to, not being spitted up at or mocked or erased because of our vaginas. I admire some french feminists a lot, women like Gisèle HAlimi who did so much for women's rights or Clémentine Autain who fights for rape to be considered a major crime (OMG, speaking of Autain on a GOT forum, life's so weird) . And Femen rock , very guttered ladies, as i feel a coward in everydaylife i admire of these women . That was my cunty aparte !
I'm very shared about the women's questions in ASOIAF. I appreciate of Martin saying that each woman of his world was a complex and different person as women in real life. That there wasn't a pattern of how a woman is supposed to act.
That said a lot of your arguments were really smart and i'll try to developp my thoughts later (cause i'm hungry ) !
lordy, what have you done! I wanted to forget this thread. Never read it since I wrote it and I should edit some of the things I said but hey! I said I try not to twist things too much (but maybe I did ) and try to go with my gut. I´m sure you´re right about some feminist writers but again, here are my prejudices (and as Groucho Marx said, I have some more). I know I can sound like an ignorant but my experience till now is no good with feminist (who proclaim themselves feminists, mind you). They discourse is a pain in the ass ... well, same happens to me with some film critics. But if you say there´s feminist that in fact sank their feet in the mud and talk sensible things, I believe you and I´ll promess I´ll read.
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
Now you don't sound as an ignorant, certainly not sweet rabbit :) And a garl who quote Groucho can't be wrong. But as you are a curious person, have a look to King Kong theory by Virginie Despentes, great read, not boring at all and gutted (i can guarantee you this).
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Je voudrais un croissant et une chaussette mignonne...
have a look to King Kong theory by Virginie Despentes, great read, not boring at all and gutted (i can guarantee you this).
great! I´ll check. I´m not reading at this moment (well I am but it´s Kristeva so)
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
I never read her, only read a book by his companion, Philippe Sollers. How is it like ?
she´s very interesting but also dense, very dense. I´m reading Love stories and there´s no love stories there, that´s how dense she is but she did cracked my brain when I had to study her. Clever lady she is.
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
.
As you see I too have bits of Catelyn I don´t like. Damn pride.
). I'm with you though, whatever the premise, I do not
. So hug yourself for me and keep reading. Ummmm......is there a way to
shall we (?) Bring your armour !
, will write a longer post tomorrow. We'll just play here among ourselves, I love this topic and your very original take on some of the characters.
, but but but as a pc whining brigade member (so a feminist in Lindee's words), i can assure you there are feminists who are incredible to read, tough women plugged in reality. Angela Davis is one of them (great read btw), Virginie Despentes and her beloved Beatriz Preciado too. I never thought feminism was a gross word, imo, it's only a right's movement in order to speak our own voices, claiming that we have the right to build our lives as we want to, not being spitted up at or mocked or erased because of our vaginas. I admire some french feminists a lot, women like Gisèle HAlimi who did so much for women's rights or Clémentine Autain who fights for rape to be considered a major crime (OMG, speaking of Autain on a GOT forum, life's so weird) . And Femen rock , very guttered ladies, as i feel a coward in everydaylife i admire of these women .
!
lordy, what have you done! I wanted to forget this thread. Never read it since I wrote it and I should edit some of the things I said but hey! I said I try not to twist things too much (but maybe I did 
) and try to go with my gut. I´m sure you´re right about some feminist writers but again, here are my prejudices (and as Groucho Marx said, I have some more). I know I can sound like an ignorant but my experience till now is no good with feminist (who proclaim themselves feminists, mind you). They discourse is a pain in the ass ... well, same happens to me with some film critics. But if you say there´s feminist that in fact sank their feet in the mud and talk sensible things, I believe you and I´ll promess I´ll read. 