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Topic: Stannis Baratheon (spoiler free)

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Black as Snow
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I am missing something. confuse

Stannis is clearly not translating well from the books to the screen.  Stannis has an incredibly devoted following among the GoT fans here, so I know there's something that isn't coming across.  Is it acting?  Is it casting? Has he simply been given short shrift by D&D?  I honestly thought his character was underdeveloped because they were going to kill him.  I thought of him as a vehicle to propel Melisandre into Westeros and nothing more.  I started this thread to ask the Stannis fans to fill in the blanks (without spoilers, if possible).  Maybe you didn't like Stannis either until he does something totally epic later in the series.  If that's the case, please don't tell me!  I would rather be surprised.

My take on Stannis is very much like his brother's.  He is entirely uninspiring.  He's a two-dimensional figure who thinks he has a right to the throne because Ned Stark said so, and based on that alone, he is willing to send thousands to their deaths, use dark magic to kill his rival/brother, cheat on his wife, etc.  In the first season, he didn't bother to attend the small council, so the business end of ruling is apparently not of interest to him.  He has no great cause, but a great deal of self-righteousness. I can't identify with this character.  I can't understand his motivations.  I can't understand why he is the way he is.  His world is black and white, and he is completely inflexible.  He shows no wisdom, no passion, no compassion, and none of the traits of a good leader.

Please, somebody explain what I'm not comprehending about this character.



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 12:18:53 AM



-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 13th of September 2012 07:14:00 AM

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Cary Storm
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Stannis in the books is two dimensional and uninspiring. He has a right to the throne because he is the oldest brother of the previous king and the king's real (not Lannister) children are all illegitimate. Many follow him because they think he has a legitimate claim. Many follow him because of the Red God that is becoming so popular on Dragonstone.

Many have stopped following him since Blackwater.



-- Edited by Cary Storm on Friday 31st of August 2012 01:19:07 PM

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YvyB
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He is a serious man! Even Tyrion says so! I think his appeal is just that. He's a machine, no compramise and with so many complex characters he's quite refreshing, you know he is just. Am I making any sense?
My favorite scene of the T.V. Stannis is Blackwater...

"Hundred's will be killed .."

Face pull.Meh.

"Thousands" !! . It is not important to him... the end justifies the means ..

Now some may say that's a bad thing, but for me, it is what it is , he doesn't pretend. Similarly his best bud Davos, he cut his fingers off for helping him , because he was still a smuggler..



-- Edited by YvyB on Friday 31st of August 2012 02:33:33 PM

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Macha
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It's somewhat hard to describe Stannis appeal without spoiling the fun, but I'll give it a try.

Stannis is extremely severe and stern, and this is why some of us find him extremely funny. He has a certain deadpan humor, and he's a no-nonsense kind of man, which feels refreshing when compared to other characters. He seems to be doomed from the start, however he has a few tricks up his sleeve, he manages to surprise.

The fact that he was absent from the Small council in S1 is explained in Book 2. He doesn't want the throne because he wants to rule, however once he holds a certain position, he's all about duty - he won't shy away from it, even if he hates it. His position in the council was anoter matter though. There was a reason for his absence, the show doesn't make it clear as crystal but I believe it's hinted at - he was close to Jon Arryn. He was one step ahead of Ned in finding out the truth about Robert and his children. He didn't confront Cersei because he wasn't an idiot, like some. :) Instead, he retreated to Dragonstone and figured out what his next step should be. I only mentioned this because this should have been explained up to this point and doesn't influence future events.

To conclude, Stannis is not a moral man. He's not as gullible as he seems either. He lacks charm, but I love the fact that he doesn't want to impress. Dillane softens him in a way, and enhances his (involuntary) humor. Not to mention he's sexy as hell. And I'm not past 30 yet .

Hard threads cut both ways, ser Davos. 



-- Edited by Macha on Friday 31st of August 2012 03:21:12 PM

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Black as Snow
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We're not THAT old, sheesh! Interesting perspective, by the way.  You're not chatting today?



-- Edited by Black as Snow on Friday 31st of August 2012 05:19:17 PM

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Black as Snow
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My sister is older than me, and I know that when it's my turn, she will get revenge for what I did to her when she turned 30.
We missed you at the chat today. You would've been appalled by the craziness!  But I guess I'm off topic for a Stannis thread. hmm



-- Edited by Black as Snow on Friday 31st of August 2012 05:41:21 PM

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Cary Storm
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Stannis in the series, on the other hand, is all that, but sexy in a way that women over 30 appreciate.

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Black as Snow
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Cary Storm wrote:

Stannis in the books is two dimensional and uninspiring. He has a right to the throne because he is the oldest brother of the previous king and the king's real (not Lannister) children are all illegitimate. Many follow him because they think he has a legitimate claim. Many follow him because of the Red God that is becoming so popular on Dragonstone.

So is the Red God is the same deity as the Lord of Light and R'hollor?  If not, I'm very confused.  If so, why not stick with one name? 

I understand the legitimacy of Stannis' claim, not that it counts for much when you're up against Lannisters.  I was hoping there was something inspiring about Stannis that I couldn't see.   



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Cary Storm
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Oh, R'Hllor has many many names. Yes, I meant him. No, I the way I read Stannis in the book is that he has absolutely no charming qualities whatsoever. He's the epitome of SERIOUS.

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Black as Snow
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Lack of charm is a serious defect. It's a good thing he has Davos and Mel to liven things up.


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DonalNoyesArm
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Tv Stannis is an improvement , I like him. He is stern but not cruel, which can not be said of Joffrey. Tv Stannis is more passionate and brave, in what ways I cannot say without book spoilers.

His claim to the Iron Throne is legit, Robert had no trueborn heirs, Cersei's children are bastards born of incest.
And Renly, charming and charismatic as he is, is his younger brother, so he is second in line.

Many debate what kind of ruler he would be, some say his iron fist would bring order and financial gain to the 7 kingsoms others say his ear being whispered by Mellisandre will lead to his undoing.

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Black as Snow
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Cary Storm wrote:

Stannis in the series, on the other hand, is all that, but sexy in a way that women over 30 appreciate.

 Hmmmm, he hadn't struck me as sexy.  I don't know if it's an age-related thing on not.  When I watch the second season again, I'll take a closer look. :P 



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Tir Airgid
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I suspect many people like him because in a world full of grey characters he's so black and white. And in the book you get to know him through the eyes of Davos, who puts him in a pedestal, so I think that might have an effect too. But I think Dillane's doing a perfect job catching the book character's essence, and making him even more likeable.

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DonalNoyesArm
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He is not quite black and white. He talks honor and justice, yet uses witchcraft to kill his own brother.
Some say Renly's death ultimately saved thousands of soldiers lives if an actual battle wouldve taken place.
But we all know Stannis cares little for cannon fodder ( or would that be wildfire fodder? ;)

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Tir Airgid
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

He is not quite black and white. He talks honor and justice, yet uses witchcraft to kill his own brother.
Some say Renly's death ultimately saved thousands of soldiers lives if an actual battle wouldve taken place.
But we all know Stannis cares little for cannon fodder ( or would that be wildfire fodder? ;)

 You're right about that, he does have a blind spot when it comes to means to acquire what he thinks he's entitled to. Yet, I think when you compare him to several other characters in the story (Ned excluded) he comes off as less grey. (I could say more on this topic, but don't want spoil anything in this thread.)



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Black as Snow
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Interesting comments. So it probably isn't an acting or casting issue. I thought I misunderstood what he's about. He seemed like a far less warm version of Ned Stark. I don't mind if Stannis hangs around, especially if he chops off Joffrey's head.

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YvyB
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I know this is out there but.... He reminds me of a medieval Sheldon Cooper! Ha ha! Focused, no social graces but you're dying for him to crack a smile ...:)

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Black as Snow
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If someone were able to crack the ice that is Stannis a little bit, I would LOVE IT.

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Aegon the Conqueror
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I think you judge Stannis a bit harshly simply because you do not have all the info. I'll just clarify a few things and then give my opinion as an unbiased Stannis fan. Stannis did not leave because he was not interested in ruling. He left to escape the power of the Lannisters and build his own strenght because he suspected along with Jon Arryn that the King's children were not trueborn. Stannis is a soldier having fought in two wars before this one. During Robert's Rebellion he held Storm's End for six months. During which Davos saved him. But where he differs from the book is that he is like Tywin and leads from the rear. However I like Stannis very much simply because he sees things in black and white, not a bad trait for a king. He always tries to do what is morally right but is very cold and pragmatic about it. Stephen Dillane said something very true about the character "his main concern is justice and the outcome of justice is that he should be king." Having someone on the Iron Throne who takes things seriously and tries to rule ina just and fair way is not a bad thing. I think he would make a fantastic king and the corruption and power grabbing that runs rampant in King's Landing would cease to exist. Ned Stark was happy to follow him which means from an honourable point of view he couldn't have been that bad. That being said he is a cold, serious man without charm. But he has a right to feel cheated. Men claim to follow and respect blood, yet most of his bannermen followed his brother. According to every law of succession except for right of conquest, his claim is the only one that is just and true. In many ways he is like Tywin except that Stannis is a man of justice and honour. I think you severely misjudge and misunderstand Stannis Baratheon. I'd like him as king.

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Aegon the Conqueror
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Macha is not over 30 yet? Oh thank goodness I was starting to think I was the only one.

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Aegon the Conqueror
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Hey when you are just over twenty, thirty seems far away. I know it's not but tell me if I'm wrong. I would love to chat but I'm not home most weekends and I'm having trouble with the full site on my mobile. Left a msg for DNA somewhere aabout it.

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Black as Snow
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When you're just over twenty, thirty IS far away. Unfortunately, it's not far away enough!
I hope Donal can get the mobile chat to work.



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Aegon the Conqueror
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That makes two of us, feels weird not chatting with you guys. Not far away enough, trueer words have never been spoken.

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Aegon the Conqueror
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Hahaha damn! Glad to see I'm missed though. Do me a fav and please direct DNA's attention to my problem via pvt msg or chat as I'm unable to do either. This is the problem: whenever I redirect to the full site I'm unable to scroll down to the bottom so can only acces the top half feautures on the page.

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Black as Snow
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Done and done.

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Thanks much appreciated.

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Cary Storm
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

@Lady Black, I am clouded judgment wise on Stannis by my devotion to House Stark. If Eddar says he is the rightful heir, to me that's gospel. However, I have a soft spot for bastards, i.e. my lovely Jon Snow, but to me, that puts Gendry on the throne. However, in lieu of legitimacy, Stannis it is.

 Lady Lyanna, we have yet to see how good looking Edric Storm is. Of course, being 12, it might be irrelevant. 



-- Edited by Cary Storm on Saturday 1st of September 2012 02:25:24 AM

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WildSeed
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Black as Snow wrote:

I am missing something. confuse

Stannis is clearly not translating well from the books to the screen.  Stannis has an incredibly devoted following among the GoT fans here, so I know there's something that isn't coming across.  Is it acting?  Is it casting? Has he simply been given short shrift by D&D?  I honestly thought his character was underdeveloped because they were going to kill him.  I thought of him as a vehicle to propel Melisandre into Westeros and nothing more.  I started this thread to ask the Stannis fans to fill in the blanks (without spoilers, if possible).  Maybe you didn't like Stannis either until he does something totally epic later in the series.  If that's the case, please don't tell me!  I would rather be surprised.

My take on Stannis is very much like his brother's.  He is entirely uninspiring.  He's a two-dimensional figure who thinks he has a right to the throne because Ned Stark said so, and based on that alone, he is willing to send thousands to their deaths, use dark magic to kill his rival/brother, cheat on his wife, etc.  In the first season, he didn't bother to attend the small council, so the business end of ruling is apparently not of interest to him.  He has no great cause, but a great deal of self-righteousness. I can't identify with this character.  I can't understand his motivations.  I can't understand why he is the way he is.  His world is black and white, and he is completely inflexible.  He shows no wisdom, no passion, no compassion, and none of the traits of a good leader.

Please, somebody explain what I'm not comprehending about this character.

          Ahem... I thought you read no books up to now....Anyway. Consider what we have learned from the GoT

          series : maester Cressen revealed to ser davos that Stannis and his brother's were very different brothers

                      with different personalities / Eddard Stark proclaimed that Stannis baratheon is the rightful heir to

                      the Iron Throne. / His on screen persona is brooding and unyielding, Wildfire nor approaching

                      armies of Tywin Lannister would subdue his quest / He punished Davos for being a pirate & thief

                      while simultaneously promoting him to lord status because of his heroic effort to bring food &

                      supply to Shipbreaker Bay while Stannis held Storm's end for Robert./ Stannis sat on the KL Small

                      council while Robert became king but only left because the corruption. / Strategist and intelligence

                      befitting a man born to status educated by maesters provided by the Hand of the King, lord Arryn.

                      Stannis may be a cold fish to some but his also seen as fair & law abiding / stern but fair / has issues

                      with trust. He is hard on himself and at times inflexible, but there much at stake during war and crisis.



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WildSeed
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Tv Stannis is an improvement , I like him. He is stern but not cruel, which can not be said of Joffrey. Tv Stannis is more passionate and brave, in what ways I cannot say without book spoilers.

His claim to the Iron Throne is legit, Robert had no trueborn heirs, Cersei's children are bastards born of incest.
And Renly, charming and charismatic as he is, is his younger brother, so he is second in line.

Many debate what kind of ruler he would be, some say his iron fist would bring order and financial gain to the 7 kingsoms others say his ear being whispered by Mellisandre will lead to his undoing.

         Thanks Donal for the drawn parallel to Joffrey. I agree that TV Stannis is an improvemrnt to some personality

         wise but did so by distracting viewers from learning him a bit more. Those S2 earlier scenes at Storm's End

         were quick and Melissandre built up as a seductress later was questionable in relevance. Still the scenes were

         there and Eddard did say what he said including Renley.  If anyone has not learned of Joffrey's history from

          the show ( Jack Gleesson is brilliant BTW ) then Benioff and Weiss have failed us all.



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YvyB wrote:

I know this is out there but.... He reminds me of a medieval Sheldon Cooper! Ha ha! Focused, no social graces but you're dying for him to crack a smile ...:)

          Yeah, that pegs him alright. My grandfather was that way, devout and loyal in every way though.



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Aegon the Conqueror
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Oh just to clarify R'hllor and the Lord of Light are one and the same but the red god Jaqen spoke of is someone else entirely.

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Black as Snow wrote:

When you're just over twenty, thirty IS far away. Unfortunately, it's not far away enough!
I hope Donal can get the mobile chat to work.

         When I was in my 20's I was so busy studying and traveling that 30, 40, 50, 100 were irrelevant

         and inconprehensible. Your joys and health are ageless so don't let numbers get in your way aww.

         Imagine the world of cheeses and sheep you have left to process and try ! I know I am supporting

         with alll the imagination and prayers it takes for your accomplishment !  Je vous te souhaite

         bonne chance, petite soeur! aww I wish you the best little sister !



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Lyanna Stark
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Cary Storm wrote:

Stannis in the series, on the other hand, is all that, but sexy in a way that women over 30 appreciate.

 Speaking er, keyboarding as a woman over 30, yep, it's true!



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Lyanna Stark
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@Lady Black, I am clouded judgment wise on Stannis by my devotion to House Stark. If Eddar says he is the rightful heir, to me that's gospel. However, I have a soft spot for bastards, i.e. my lovely Jon Snow, but to me, that puts Gendry on the throne. However, in lieu of legitimacy, Stannis it is.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
WildSeed
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Lyanna Stark wrote:
Cary Storm wrote:

Stannis in the series, on the other hand, is all that, but sexy in a way that women over 30 appreciate.

 Speaking er, keyboarding as a woman over 30, yep, it's true!

               Ugh... hate keyboarding/ typing. I never took instruction but the worst is that my fingers cannot keep

               up with my thoughts I'd wish to type. There's no way here to return and edit my mistakes ( missing or

               misspelled words ) ). I wish for only one thing, that I was 20 y/o again solely for the purpose of taking a

              typing  class along with learning all the stuff Donal  knows to do with a computer. hmm



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Cary Storm wrote:

Oh, R'Hllor has many many names. Yes, I meant him. No, I the way I read Stannis in the book is that he has absolutely no charming qualities whatsoever. He's the epitome of SERIOUS.

          Azor Ahai / Rh'llor / Lord of Light......yes I do agree, our man Stan is indeed serious and many say grudging

          but not amoral. So far GRRM revealed Stannis's softer side .....much. I wonder how is his demeanor with

         Shireen ? Was he meant for someone other than Selyse ? I believe he's very private with expressing his tender

          side .  Our Stannis needs a genuine warm embrace aww



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Black as Snow wrote:

If someone were able to crack the ice that is Stannis a little bit, I would LOVE IT.

          Our Stannis needs a hug aww



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DonalNoyesArm
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WildSeed wrote:
 I wish for only one thing, that I was 20 y/o again solely for the purpose of taking a

              typing  class along with learning all the stuff Donal  knows to do with a computer. hmm

 You are never to old to learn I am also in my 30's so stop complaining, ya making me feel old!! disbeliefnoevileye

Me thinks we will have a lot more Stannis next season.



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Aegon the Conqueror
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Gosh I hope so, and I hope they show that he's not the bad guy cause let's face it non of the non readers cheered for him during Blackwater. I also enjoyed Stephen Dillane's portrayal very much, "come with me and take this city!"

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Cary Storm
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Gosh I hope so, and I hope they show that he's not the bad guy cause let's face it non of the non readers cheered for him during Blackwater. I also enjoyed Stephen Dillane's portrayal very much, "come with me and take this city!"

 I imagine Stannis will have quite a poignant number about how he was shaped by his childhood in Game of Thrones:The Musical



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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
WildSeed wrote:
 I wish for only one thing, that I was 20 y/o again solely for the purpose of taking a

              typing  class along with learning all the stuff Donal  knows to do with a computer. hmm

 You are never to old to learn I am also in my 30's so stop complaining, ya making me feel old!! disbeliefnoevileye

Me thinks we will have a lot more Stannis next season.

            LMAO aww



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WildSeed
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

Oh just to clarify R'hllor and the Lord of Light are one and the same but the red god Jaqen spoke of is someone else entirely.

         Ya know you're right . I was always convinced from  reading but viewing had me question. Where Arya

          went later really clarified that for me.



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WildSeed
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GoT Jaqen swore an oath to Arya that referred to the Old Gods and the New and all the ones not mentioned.
I momentarily forgot in my earlier post., icluding mentioning Stannis reference as" Azor Ahai ,Reborn " .
No more Arbor Gold for me today.

I remain impressed with Stannis Baratheon , book and show. I hope his storyline improves as it evolves
on GoT.



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Andrew
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@ Aegon - I thought when Jaqen said "The Red God" he was indeed referring to R'hllor since it was fire that Arya saved them from. Not necessarily saying he served R'hllor, just a nod to fire being his domain.

Stannis deffinitely took a while to grow on me. By the end though, I liked him. During Clash of Kings though, not so much haha.

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Cary Storm
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AWOIAF: "R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, is a prominent god on Essos, but has only a few followers in Westeros, where he is more commonly known as the Red God. His symbol is a fiery heart." Not sure why Jaqen would call someone else the Red God.

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andrea
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YvyB wrote:

He is a serious man! Even Tyrion says so! I think his appeal is just that. He's a machine, no compramise and with so many complex characters he's quite refreshing, you know he is just. Am I making any sense?
My favorite scene of the T.V. Stannis is Blackwater...

"Hundred's will be killed .."

Face pull.Meh.

"Thousands" !! . It is not important to him... the end justifies the means ..

Now some may say that's a bad thing, but for me, it is what it is , he doesn't pretend. Similarly his best bud Davos, he cut his fingers off for helping him , because he was still a smuggler..

 

Making more than sense, making justice I´d say.



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andrea
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Macha wrote:

It's somewhat hard to describe Stannis appeal without spoiling the fun, but I'll give it a try.

Stannis is extremely severe and stern, and this is why some of us find him extremely funny. He has a certain deadpan humor, and he's a no-nonsense kind of man, which feels refreshing when compared to other characters. He seems to be doomed from the start, however he has a few tricks up his sleeve, he manages to surprise.

He didn't confront Cersei because he wasn't an idiot, like some. :)

He lacks charm, but I love the fact that he doesn't want to impress. Dillane softens him in a way, and enhances his (involuntary) humor. Not to mention he's sexy as hell. And I'm not past 30 yet .


 and also this. And I do past 30, although I don´t know what that means.



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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).

 

 

 
WildSeed
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Cary Storm wrote:

AWOIAF: "R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, is a prominent god on Essos, but has only a few followers in Westeros, where he is more commonly known as the Red God. His symbol is a fiery heart." Not sure why Jaqen would call someone else the Red God.

        Thanks Cary, I was beginning to doubt myself again. I can only imagine viewers considered only what was

        brought up as 2 distinct entities ( as mentioned by Melisandre and Jaqen ). Why question or become

        confused when it's presented as such. I haven't begun my re-read project yet but I 'm quite "on the

        same page as you " in this . Thanks to you and Andrew for clarification.



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idkk
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Cary Storm wrote:

AWOIAF: "R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, is a prominent god on Essos, but has only a few followers in Westeros, where he is more commonly known as the Red God. His symbol is a fiery heart." Not sure why Jaqen would call someone else the Red God.

 Yup, GRRM addressed this in a recent interview:


Q: Jaqen refers to the Red God, and elsewhere to the god of fire. Is he referring to R'hllor?

Spoiler

A: (George thinks for a moment) Well, remember when Jaqen names him: he had very nearly burned to death recently...

 

 

 



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Aegon the Conqueror
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Maybe the faceless god includes R'hllor.

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