Har. I'd bet that ser George Martin at some point recognizes our speculation and/or angst where answers are not easily defined and smiles because he plans to keep those facts for another book.
On SVB blog a longtime reader referred to him as a sadistic SOB , but cannot stay away from anything he writes.
A woman thinks that Stannis will not make it to the Iron Throne, but don't know how they'll play it. Maybe Queen Selyse finds him and Mel during some sexy time and the Queen makes her own shadow baby with one of her bodyguard knights. Nah, probably not.
-- Edited by MrsHghar on Thursday 6th of September 2012 02:26:44 AM
I'm glad for the clarification on Stannis. I'll try to give him a fair shake in season 3 (and when I find time to rewatch season 2). I completely understand the basis for his claim to the throne. I just don't think that's sufficient to get him on the throne in the evil, back-stabbing world GRRM has created. So I'll be interested to see how his story unfolds next season.
Melisandre's motives will indeed be made clear later on. It was kind of a surprise for me as a reader as well, though I won't say in what way. It definitely added to her complexity as a character, in my opinion. Who's using who - that's not settled with book readers either, so it's all about personal interpretation. I'd say they're both using each other, but in different ways. I can't sustain that without going into Melisandre's characterization, so I'll just stop here with this line of thought. You'll definitely enjoy their storyline in the future though (not saying you'll end up liking them or hating them). Not sure how the show will handle it, but it sort of came out of nowhere in the books, GRRM has a talent for dealing with the unexpected. I did turn every page in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords thinking this is the chapter he bites the dust, though. He just had "doomed character" written all over him from the start.
Totally in agreement on all points , including above. GRRM gave us just enough information for us to get an
impression but not expose major considerations or facts. We had to allow the story to evolve and reveal what
was missing. It changes our perception if not intuition. That alone does not balance out a complete picture. I
really changed my mind about Melissandre after Blackwater, really changed my suspicion to intrigue !
-- Edited by WildSeed on Thursday 6th of September 2012 04:51:05 PM
As I read, I felt that Stannis was always waiting around to be King. That somehow he was just taking his time, waiting for the raven to arrive to tell him that he, in fact, would be king. Kind of like the raven Ned sent to him.
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
As I read, I felt that Stannis was always waiting around to be King. That somehow he was just taking his time, waiting for the raven to arrive to tell him that he, in fact, would be king. Kind of like the raven Ned sent to him.
That's kind of sad, Lyanna. Poor Stannis. From the show, I got the opposite impression -- that he was willing to do whatever it takes to make his own destiny, rather than waiting for it to drop in his lap.
That's very perceptive of you, Black as Snow. The way I see it, it's a bit of both actually. No, Stannis never wanted to be king (here my opinions differ from Lyanna's), but he did wanted some sort of recognition for his efforts - holding Storm's End when it was under siege, defeating the Iron Fleet when Balon rebelled (don't think they mentioned that on the show) - and felt he never got it. There's a bit of jealousy there as well. Robert was loved by everyone despite his flaws, Renly was always charming yet he did nothing to deserve Storm's End, which he got, and even as a kid Stannis was...well pretty much as you see him now. Serious and brooding. Melisandre is efficient, and he's willing to make use of her power mainly because he lacks other means.
Interesting analysis. I thought the opposite way about Melisandre. I thought of her using Stannis to gain a foothold and possibly the power of the Iron Throne for her religion in Westeros. I didn't really think about how he was using her because it always seemed like she was trying to convince him.
The show did convey that Stannis did not get the recognition he deserved for his actions and leadership during Robert's Rebellion, but it didn't mention anything about the Greyjoys. I wonder if Stannis' lack of self-promotion is the reason. He expected things to be given to him when he needed to advocate for those accolades. And I wonder how closely Tyrion's treatment in the aftermath of Blackwater will parallel Stannis' treatment in prior conflicts. Because it sure looks like Tyrion is getting screwed, even though I doubt he'll sit quietly by and take it. I hope!
I also think Stannis does have a big chip in his shoulder about recognition. He always did what he saw as his duty (upto kinda now) and got nothing for it. And at the same time everyone loved Robert and Renly. And the way I see it, he feels its his turn, his time to shine and he's being passed again and is not gonna take it anymore. And this time he's got a chemical weapon (Melisandre) that can help him get there so he uses it. But who's actually using who we don't know.
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“Fear is a strange soil. It grows obedience like corn, which grow in straight lines to make weeding easier. But sometimes it grows the potatoes of defiance, which flourish underground.”
Melisandre's motives will indeed be made clear later on. It was kind of a surprise for me as a reader as well, though I won't say in what way. It definitely added to her complexity as a character, in my opinion. Who's using who - that's not settled with book readers either, so it's all about personal interpretation. I'd say they're both using each other, but in different ways. I can't sustain that without going into Melisandre's characterization, so I'll just stop here with this line of thought. You'll definitely enjoy their storyline in the future though (not saying you'll end up liking them or hating them). Not sure how the show will handle it, but it sort of came out of nowhere in the books, GRRM has a talent for dealing with the unexpected. I did turn every page in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords thinking this is the chapter he bites the dust, though. He just had "doomed character" written all over him from the start.
A woman has some suspicions about where Stannis's story will go, but nothing based on hints only guesses. Queen Selyse seems to me on the verge of a nervous breakdown and the R'hllor thing has become her obsession and she's taken a missionary role with the soldiers. This is to fill the gap left by an unhappy marriage, lack of the children she wanted to have. Just reading between lines, but as even in the show it's implied that she's not so healthy it wouldn't be surprising if Stannis were widowed and Mel moves in to become the new queen (Red queen, like a card game). Then Stannis could pop out some little red-eyed Stans.
-- Edited by MrsHghar on Friday 7th of September 2012 12:12:09 AM
He does seem doomed! That's one reason why I completely wrote Stannis off. I never thought he would live long, especially with the limited exposition his character got. He got far less screen time than even Renly.
He does seem doomed! That's one reason why I completely wrote Stannis off. I never thought he would live long, especially with the limited exposition his character got. He got far less screen time than even Renly.
It was so with reading also. With some ASOIAF Major Characters whom were POV actually, we readers received
tasty morsels of informations only later. With events unfolding all over the realm , the reader and viewer gets
whiplash from absorbing so many people and events. Would it hurt if we an extra glimpse ? Possible maybe
yes or maybe not. What's considered enought to satisfy during an epic ? IMHO, it feels more real this way.
Instant gratification suits some on Network TV, spoiling or frustrating viewers. There is no gage for satisfaction
it's effect only recognised by viewers switching the channel.
In the books we literally waited months or years before learned what really happened at Blackwater or
other characters in play during other skirmishes or separate stories begun at the beginning of the book.
For me I feel it paced realisticly and evened the emotional tempo as plots or plans emerged. Macha
touched on this in the Tv Trivia thread about GRRM's style and need to re-digest. I felt with so much
happening simultaneously the weariness of keeping up is daunting. Some people actually quit watching
because the predictable outcomes is not like Network Tv. Others saw Stannis's departure as a questioning
situation regarding his fate but needed to informed before a decision could be cast. For once intelligent
writing is engaging viewers to pace their anxieties and allow events to unfold.
Readers are no more certain of the Man Stannis or King Stannis as anyone. We have speculations and
very good educated guesses. I am a admirer or lord Stannis and seek to learn more to be convinced by
his motives and decisions. After reading 5 books I have respect for his values and good impression on
what he does but only GRRM knows where that leaves him. Viewers have until next spring, readers have
WildSeed wrote:For me I feel it paced realisticly and evened the emotional tempo as plots or plans emerged. Macha
touched on this in the Tv Trivia thread about GRRM's style and need to re-digest. I felt with so much
happening simultaneously the weariness of keeping up is daunting. Some people actually quit watching
because the predictable outcomes is not like Network Tv. Others saw Stannis's departure as a questioning
situation regarding his fate but needed to informed before a decision could be cast. For once intelligent
writing is engaging viewers to pace their anxieties and allow events to unfold.
That's exactly what makes me love GoT so much! Nothing is predictable! Well, the two charred boys being the orphans was predictable. But so far, nothing else has been. There's no other show like it. And few movies can come anywhere close to being as engaging as GoT.
Interesting speculation! But I sure hope it's not Stannis popping out little anythings. In any case, I don't think Stannis' wife is very pleased about much of anything right about now.
In any case, I don't think Stannis' wife is very pleased about much of anything right about now.
