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Topic: Jon Snow *Book Spoilers*

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Maegor The Cruel
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Jon Snow *Book Spoilers*
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One of my favorite characters and one of the most fascinating. He's one of the greatest Lord Commanders ever and we don't even know if he's alive or dead. Thoughts?



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Sunday 1st of September 2013 07:29:45 PM

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YvyB
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He's fine Meagor .... remember Mel saw him as a man then a wolf then a man ....

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Aegon the Conqueror
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I think he will die, releasing him from his vows and then Mell will bring him back.
Ps. Maegor there's a chat at the bottom, we'd love for you to join.

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Maegor The Cruel
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I guess the only real reason for him to die would be to be released from his vow. I didn't think about that actually. I'm still worried about Jon though.


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Aegon the Conqueror
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He's fucking R+L=J=Azor Ahai, he won't stay dead, born amidst salt and smoke.

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Macha
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Re-reading ADwD now, there are a lot of things that I simply brushed over first time I read the books. For instance, on a second re-read it became more clear than he does break some of his vows (the "take no part" comes to mind) and realizes this himself. Yes, we know he did it for the right reasons.

I liked him more and more after he became Lord Commander, and no, he won't "stay" dead. However, I cling to this theory of mine (I only adhere to it, others have come with it first) that he won't be fighting on the same side. He's grown as a character tremendously, but if he simply returns to lead the men against the Others, his assassination is useless, it serves no purpose. His character gains nothing from it, in terms of complexity. I think it will change him and his nature, and I tend to believe he wil...ok this may sound crackpot-ish..I think he'll fight against the realm. Anakin Skywalker-ish maybe? 

As for who will be reviving him, Mel sounds like the most plausible choice. I'm really curious to see how will the warging work in his case, and what will happen to his body. 



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Maegor The Cruel
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But Jon can't be Azor Ahai because it has to be Dany. She fit's the prophecy all the way. I mean there are three dragons and three dragonspawn (Dany, Jon and Aegon), but dany is responsible for it.

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Maegor The Cruel
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Btw you are gorgeous Macha. Um... you too Aegon lol.


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Macha
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Haha, it's just like those infamous valyrian scrolls, Maegor. She fits the prophecy since day one, and isn't that a little obvious for GRRM? Personally I find that the words of the Night's Watch fit that prophecy more, somehow.

"I am the sword in the darkness... I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn" - these scream Azor Ahai & Lightbringer to me.
As for Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or whatever he may be, we still don't know if he's for real or not. Oh well, the three headed dragon part always confused me so I never wasted too much time trying to get to the bottom of that one.

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Maegor The Cruel
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Well Dany was never obvious to those who knew the prophecy, because they were always looking for a man. The Night's Watch oath is more so referring to the White Walkers, I think. But obviously Azor Ahai is tied in with them. He was the one who fought them off and then they created the Night's Watch and Wall as protection. And if this Aegon isn't really who we think he is, then I have to go back to my Jaqen being Rhaegar theory because the dragon has three heads. I know that it's not the most popular theory, but I've stated all my reasons for it and it makes sense to me. Why else would Jaqen be at the Citadel? He obviously isn't there just to kill someone so we go back to those scrolls.

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Macha
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Regarding that theory, I posted something in the Jaqen thread.

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Rygar
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I haven't given much thought to Jon. To be honest I was disappointed with his chapters in Dance. I've waited close to 8 years for Jon's story to continue and I was not pleased by the result. I do believe that Jon will not die and that Mel will revive him. Turning Jon into Ghost would not make sense to me. I am losing faith however that George can pull all this together. I am also really drunk as I have not had a bit of alcohol in days.

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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

I think he will die, releasing him from his vows and then Mell will bring him back.

 This....there is a reason Mel had a chapter, and Red Priests can revive the dead. But we'll see how things go.



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Macha
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Rygar wrote:

Turning Jon into Ghost would not make sense to me. 

 I think some we'll see some warging at the beginning of TWoW in Jon's case simply because of the prologue in ADwD. I find that prologue to be significant for two other characters, Bran and Jon, because it emphasizes that warging a human is wrong (looking at you, Bran!) and there's that interesting bit when Varamyr wargs different animals after his human body is dead/at the point of dying. Of course, I don't want to imply that Jon will stay in Ghost's body forever, that would be...no, just no. 



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Aegon the Conqueror
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Dany will die soon, so she can't Azor Ahai, just saying.

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YvyB
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" Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." This interests me the most ..... not so much the blade .... that ones obvious. How the book ended and the armored in black ice......

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Macha
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YvyB I just re-read that last night and that just jumped right out of the page. All the rest of the dream can be explained by his guilt and doubt that maybe he's not doing the right thing, thus betraying everyone who believed in him. But that black ice bit, with a sword burning in his hand? That screams Azor Ahai, but perhaps not the Azor Ahai we're expecting.

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YvyB
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Ah I noticed the red sword straight away .... that and Mel seeing him in the flames ...I thought also when he burnt his hand to get it .... like I say tho the black ice .... hmmmm

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YvyB
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"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."


It's always been Jon in my mind from the first read of ASoIaF...
He has the sword.He burnt his hand getting it.

 

I also have a theory on Smoke and Salt ... it's a bit crackpot , but we like that here right?

Smoke ... as in deceit ...

Salt ... as in station in life ..." below the salt"

 

The bastard that was mudered by deceit.... reborn admidst all that...



-- Edited by YvyB on Monday 24th of September 2012 07:43:44 AM

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YvyB
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GRRM mentions it a couple of times , I'd never herd the expression before so I looked it up .

I think it was in reference to where they sat at the table .... if you were "below the salt" you were lowly born and had to sit at the back .... (like Jon did when the King came to Winterfell) because salt was very expensive , it would have been on the top table.


To be worth your salt ...( I have herd this one )deserving ...

 

Hence  amidst smoke and salt .... the deceit of his fellow Nightswatch or indeed the smoke surrounding his paratage ... him actually being "above the salt"



-- Edited by YvyB on Monday 24th of September 2012 08:25:04 AM

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YvyB
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Oh for sure Macha ... I have no doubt he's going to the ice cells ... remember Mel's vision... " Blood frozen red and hard".

 

maybe my theory wasn't obvious enough so GRRM's putting another bit in there ... ha ha !



and of course there's the old , his wound smoked and the salt from Bowan's tears .....



-- Edited by YvyB on Monday 24th of September 2012 08:38:30 AM

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Tir Airgid
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Gosh, I never thought about that phrase before "to be worth your salt". You learn something every day.

I see what you mean now. And I also take Jon to be Azor Ahai, but never thought it from a "darker" perspective like macha pointed out. I love pondering on that.  

I always thought Bran was the one going to the "dark" side. (Which doesn't necesarily mean the "bad" side; for all we know may end up saving the world from a death-by-dragon catastrophy... ) He seems to be going down quite an Anakin path right now. But anywhoo...

@macha: How do you interpret from your Different-than-expected AA theory the expression "the darkness shall flee before him"?



-- Edited by Tir Airgid on Monday 24th of September 2012 10:12:42 AM

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Tir Airgid
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Macha wrote:

YvyB I just re-read that last night and that just jumped right out of the page. All the rest of the dream can be explained by his guilt and doubt that maybe he's not doing the right thing, thus betraying everyone who believed in him. But that black ice bit, with a sword burning in his hand? That screams Azor Ahai, but perhaps not the Azor Ahai we're expecting.

 That's very interesting. I noticed the sword too, but read over the black ice. The most interesting part to me is the his armored in black ice at the same time that he's holding that sword, so it doesn't seem to pinpoint two events but one. I like pondering how he might be Azor Ahai after all, but not the one we think... Prophecy being a two sided blade and all that. I like this idea very much, Macha.



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Tir Airgid
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YvyB wrote:

Salt ... as in station in life ..." below the salt"


 I'm not sure I get what you mean by "below the salt"?



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Macha
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That's a very plausible theory, YvyB.
How would you interpret the "to wake dragons out of stone" part? Because here I'm still torn. When GRRM uses "dragon" in a prophecy or a dream it always stands for a Targaryen and not an actual dragon (see The Hedge Knight as well), and that for me can only be two people. Jon himself, but even if R+L=J is true, his Stark heritage seems too powerful for him to be conisdered a "dragon", or Bloodraven. This is my personal theory because I think there's a strong possibility that Bloodraven might "wake" from his weirwood throne, with help of either Bran or Jon. I don't know what his endgame is, but I don't think he brought Bran there just so that he could have someone to hang out with and kill the boredom, or simply offering him the "last greenseer" position once it's vacant.

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Macha
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You know salt and smoke could also be tied to those ice cells where they keep the smoked bacon etc. I know it sounds silly but there's a whole scene devoted to that place in ADwD, so who knows, maybe that's where Jon's body will end up.

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YvyB
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Yep I.m with you thus far ... My initial thoughts on the dragons from stone ... were the same as you.. Targs... So I just took it to mean ... gather them to the cause...but you have something with BloodRaven ... he is NOT a "goody" in my mind ... he's up to something , and always has been ... he has the BIGGER picture for sure..

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Macha
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Tir - I don't know. My problem with this whole issue is that I can't figure out the "sides". It should be ice and fire, but for now the main players up north are Bran & Bloodraven on one side, and Mel & Jon on the other. Will they work together or against, I can't say but for now Melisandre wonders if Bloodraven is the enemy. I can definitely see Bran/Bloodraven as the Great Other. But I'm not sure how Jon figures in all of this. I feel that there's a stronger possibility he will not be a messianic figure, but a darker one, simply because I feel that his character has nothing to gain by becoming the ultimate savior. He was already on the point of becoming that when they stabbed him. This should be a game changer, otherwise why do it? Simply to add another obstacle which he will overcome? That doesn't feel right to me.
In the end, both factions have done shady things. The fire "team" seems to have the right idea, supporting life and humanity against winter and The Others but we don't yet know what's the whole deal with the Others. If I remember correctly GRRM criticized Tolkien for his black and white take on LotR, so I can only imagine his take will be more nuanced.
Plus, GRRM's prophecies seem to lack grandeur, so I think it's entirely plausible that "the darkness shall flee before him" could have a much more mundane meaning than defeating the Others.


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Aegon the Conqueror
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YvyB wrote:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."


It's always been Jon in my mind from the first read of ASoIaF...
He has the sword.He burnt his hand getting it.

 

I also have a theory on Smoke and Salt ... it's a bit crackpot , but we like that here right?

Smoke ... as in deceit ...

Salt ... as in station in life ..." below the salt"

 

The bastard that was mudered by deceit.... reborn admidst all that...



-- Edited by YvyB on Monday 24th of September 2012 07:43:44 AM

 Yvy tis not neccesary to reach for anything with Salt and Smoke Jon theory. When Jon was stabbed his brothers cried, salt and there was also smoke coming from his wounds. This is also his birth as he will die there, releasing him from his oath, but reawakening as Azor Ahai.



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YvyB
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Read further down Aegon ... I have mentioned that also :)

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Macha
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To play the devil's advocate for a bit here, the phrasing of the prophecy indicates that first the "red star bleeds" and in that hour (meaning somewhat simultaneous or shortly after) a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. What does the red star stand for? The comet? If the burning sword is meant to be Longclaw, Jon acquired it before the comet made it's apparition in ACoK.
I'm not disputing that Jon stands for Azor Ahai, I'm just saying that maybe we want to attribute certain meanings to some events, but maybe we've just not seen the prophecy coming to fruition. Maybe the red star and the burning sword haven't happened. I think this was a clever tactic by GRRM, give us a prophecy that fits certain past events, and we'll be so busy trying to fit all the requirements, when maybe those things are still about to happen.

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YvyB
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I agree totally Macha ... I think this is been my main appeal ! I also think we need to put that prophecy up on a thread ... to refer to I mean ...

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andrea
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Macha wrote:

To play the devil's advocate for a bit here, the phrasing of the prophecy indicates that first the "red star bleeds" and in that hour (meaning somewhat simultaneous or shortly after) a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. What does the red star stand for? The comet? If the burning sword is meant to be Longclaw, Jon acquired it before the comet made it's apparition in ACoK.
I'm not disputing that Jon stands for Azor Ahai, I'm just saying that maybe we want to attribute certain meanings to some events, but maybe we've just not seen the prophecy coming to fruition. Maybe the red star and the burning sword haven't happened. I think this was a clever tactic by GRRM, give us a prophecy that fits certain past events, and we'll be so busy trying to fit all the requirements, when maybe those things are still about to happen.

 Oh Macha nerd.gif

 I think this was a clever tactic by GRRM, give us a prophecy that fits certain past events, and we'll be so busy trying to fit all the requirements, when maybe those things are still about to happen.

Like Nostradamus you say??? Like all religions?



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Lyanna Stark
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Aegon the Conqueror wrote:

He's fucking R+L=J=Azor Ahai, he won't stay dead, born amidst salt and smoke.

 It is known. biggrin



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Rygar
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Jon is a shitty warg.  Mos Def.



-- Edited by Rygar on Sunday 14th of April 2013 06:16:55 PM

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Mags Giantsbabe
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Jon's not a shitty warg, Varamyr notes that he's the most powerful one he's ever met. He just supresses it. I've recently read some theories (yes, I'm going that way) on Val/Bran's/Bloodraven's possible role in reviving Jon. They seem like far more interesting and logical options to me now, moreso than Jon being reborn on the Mel side. Especially if you consider that Val might be some sort of Moonsinger priestess (that essay I posted suggest this). When she comes back with Tormund to meet Jon again, all in white, with a bone dagger and that curious Weirwood sigil on her clothes (heraldry ends at the Wall, remember?), I thought nothing of it, but after reading other people's suggestions I'm tickled. Even her eyes change colour, but I think GRRM stated that that was a mistake.

For some Jon Snow appreciation: The ingeniuty of Jon Snow - http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/26838025576/the-ingenuity-of-jon-snow">http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/26838025576/the-ingenuity-of-jon-snow and yes I tend to agree the show lacks this, but simply due to limited screen time.



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Lyanna Stark
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I loved your report, Mags, great reading. Thanks for the heads up.

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Mags Giantsbabe
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Pleasure. I've always been meaning to ask people's opinions on his stabbing. Do you think Jon deserved his stabbing, did he have it coming (all perspectives considered), or was Bowen Marsh and co simply too short-sighted to what he was trying to achieve? Maybe miscommunication on Jon's part, no?

Because alot of people seem to see Jon as stupid in his reasoning in ADWD (Dany as well), but I can't help but notice his subtleties. GRRM seems to have intended that he is a young leader facing the realities of being in command in aDwD.

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Lyanna Stark
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I don't see Jone as stupid at all. Mayhaps a bad script from time to time on HBO, but book Jon, no way. He's an illegitimate young man, whose father is dead, behind the wall with no brothers with him, in the enemy camp and comes back to talk about it, albeit injured. And Maester Aemon thinks highly of him, and the Lord Commander did as well. Taken together to me, that's gospel.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Macha
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Neah, he ain't stupid at all. I for one don't even think he comes off as being stupid on the show either. He may seem that way because the series has a lot (too many, even?) savvy characters that were introduced as being wise or cunning since the very beginning, while Jon has to grow into it. To me, Azor Ahai/Targ ancestry yadda yadda aside, he's far more realistic than many of the other characters, so I never understand this "he looks dumb" reaction. Uhm, no? He looks just like any other real person would look in his shoes - which is being presented with so many unknowns. Jon is fine. He doesn't have to have a cold stare and burn cities to be a solid character. But then, I guess "real" is boring to fantasy readers.
What he did with the wildlings seems like one of those decisions posterity would usually judge as being a huge step forward in the history of a kingdom, but only a few centuries later. On one hand, I loved GRRM's idea to go for a Caesar-like moment. On the other hand, the fact that he'll obviously live through it cheapens that moment A LOT.



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Mags Giantsbabe
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Thanks for your input Macha, and yours too, Ly :)

I like the Ceasar moment too. Love it, although heartbreaking. I stille hope he survives in some way though, without cheapening the impact. Don't know if it's possible though? Kit himself has repeatedly mentioned in interviews that Jon needs to grow up, and he needs to play him as still young and immature and not allow himself to play ahead into the future books.

But I specifically have book Jon in mind. I think my sensititvity comes from reading too much into the negativity on WiC's threads regarding Jon Snow in general. Alot of so-called experts on the books seem to think Jon is a very trope-like character. I don't completely agree with this. I think the trope of the hero is too well-hidden in a very well thought out character arc. I simply don't know where Jon's and Dany's arcs will be going in the future, which porbably proves the strenths of this. Plus if Jon is so tropy, why do we all like him so much? Haha!

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Lyanna Stark
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JON SNOW (People Magazine's Men we want on the Bachelor)

A.K.A.: Kit Harington
Where you've seen him: Game of Thrones
Occupation: Steward of the Night Watch
Location: The Wall/North of the Wall
Bachelor qualities: Though his last relationship ended badly (really, really badly), Snow's loyalty to the Night Watch is something to be commended. Also, his handsome looks, sexy "Winterfellian" accent and skill with his swords would make any girl swoon. The downside? His job requires him to be celibate, a definite buzzkill in the Fantasy Suite.

JON SNOW photo | Kit Harington



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Thursday 19th of September 2013 10:00:59 AM

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Lyanna Stark
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Kit Harington
BAFTA+LA+Tea+Party+14B.JPG

 Go home and start over. You can’t rest on that hair forever, y’know.  Although his is a cutie patootie, show some respect, wear a suit for the love of Sam Tarly.


 

 


 


 

 


 


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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Mags Giantsbabe
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

Kit Harington
BAFTA+LA+Tea+Party+14B.JPG

 Go home and start over. You can’t rest on that hair forever, y’know.  Although his is a cutie patootie, show some respect, wear a suit for the love of Sam Tarly.

Hehe, didn't you see him at the Emmys??

 

 


 


 

 


 

 



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Lyanna Stark
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Yes, he made up for it at the Emmys.  Very dapper.  I do love a man in a well-tailored suit



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Mags Giantsbabe
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The Bafta-tea party look was elegant yet simple, I kind of like it now.

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“You take a mortal man, put him in control. Watch him become a god, see heads roll."

 

 

 

 
Lyanna Stark
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Isn't my boy a doll baby?

littletotyvergara:Kit Harington on the #Emmys red carpet!#gameofthrones

littletotyvergara:

Kit Harington on the #Emmys red carpet!#gameofthrones



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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I see we are all three of one mind @Aegon & @Lady Lyanna! Tormund would be proud, I'm sure. A Targ, a Stark and a wildling... Sounds like the beginning of a joke.

Kidding aside, I believe he is Azor Ahai reborn. Mostly is my wishing it to be so, but partly is interpretation of events. Not only there is circumstantial evidence brought by logically ordering the events from Ned's dreams to him being of Targaryan bloodline (I've read the title, Don! it says books spoilers LOL!), but it can be inferred  that Longclaw is Lightbringer if one's willing to take a more liberal approach at the matter.

I'm sure this theory has been around before but he did ignite the fire that killed that wight and thus saved Mormont. That fire not only left him with a burnt hand (which mind you appears every other paragraph in all Jon's chapters), but also burnt Lord Commander's sword and left the thing without a handle. He gave that sword to Jon, redone with a direwolf handle. The longsword is also Valeryan steel, which as far as we know kills White Walkers. Technically Jon did not pull it himself from the fire but he did started it and gained the sword for his burnt hand. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear but you'll let me know.

I need to get my thoughts in order, this stuff is too confusing....



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Thursday 9th of January 2014 07:24:57 PM

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Mags Giantsbabe
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Tormund'sWoman

I've always wondered about the possibility of Longclaw as Lightbringer. It is said that that sword has been in the Mormont family for five centuries, but what about before that? I also wonder, with the AA prophecy, if it can also happen more than once, first Dany and then Jon, etc.

Jon's ADWD chapters are among my favourites. I counted the pov's the other day, and just like in ASOS, Jon has the most chapters. I cannot wait for season four. I know people are excited about the Red Viper and the Purple Wedding, but it's going to be a Jon seasoncheese, especially towards the end. All his clips in the trailer look amazing and I personally look forward to the Craster's Keep added scene.



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“You take a mortal man, put him in control. Watch him become a god, see heads roll."

 

 

 

 
TormundsWoman
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Mags, I root for the crow! Frankly he's one of those characters I root for while I feel like smacking him over the head and give him a piece of my mind for not waking up on time.

No idea about where that sword has been before but LC Mormont said it has not really been used if I recall correctly and giving it to Jon felt the right thing to do.

As for season 4: I'm waiting for the Red Viper myself, though not because he's necessarily badass, that does not mean I'll not thoroughly enjoy Jon's part. Kit Harrington does him justice. Cannot imagine another Jon Snow now.

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