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Topic: The Ice Dragon theory............................Spoiler alert!

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Two Feathers
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The Ice Dragon theory............................Spoiler alert!
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So, is there an ice dragon in or under the Wall? Or is the Wall itself a sleeping dragon?

Maester Aemon seems to come to that conclusion in Feast ( page 473/474 ), when in Bravos with Sam , Gilly and Dareon.

He has heard a rumour from a drunken Dareon that dragons live in the world again, and knows the prophesy of the red comet.

" I should not have left the Wall," Aemon says to Sam. " Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes but cold preserves. The Wall...."

I ilke the idea of an ice dragon in the Wall. But as to its possible purpose within the saga, I have no idea.

Jon also happens to mention an ice dragon is Dance, one time he refers to a snow covered mound, describing it as a sleeping ice dragon. And later he comments on the cold in the tunnel beneath the Wall, saying it feels like walking under the belly of an ice dragon. 

What do you guys think?



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YvyB
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Ok, my instant thoughts, without referencing, the" Fire consumes , cold preserves "line , I read as Aemon living longer at the wall, realizing he is going to die away from it?
I have also heard discussions on this ice dragon theory, again I have no back up, but I seem to remember, someone saying , that GRRM himself said there were no Ice Dragons and his other story had no connection at all .....

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Macha
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clap Yay, new thread, and a good one at that.
I have no theories on this really, but just throwing my two cents. I'd personally hate for another dragon to really show up, but that being said - it's possible.

I have found the whole paragraph:

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend... or...”
“Or?” said Sam.

"... or not.” Aemon chuckled softly. “Or I am an old man, feverish and dying.” He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. “I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall... but it is too late to go running back..."

The first part is definitely interesting, how would have the phrase continued? "wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend... or..."...control? That was my first thought.
In regards to the second paragraph, Aemon could just be talking about his imminent death, now that he's away from the Wall. Perhaps the Wall prolonged his life just like it enhances Mel's powers.
I'm not sure we'll ever get an answer on how the Wall was built, because GRRM says time and again how he doesn't want to explain magic, but there is one thing I'm fairly certain of: the Wall will be brought down by something, at least partly. It has to be, for the Others to invade. Who would be the candidate for that is hard to say though. It has to be done by magic, which sort of rules out Mel, not that she'd have any reason to do it anyway. What remains is a powerful enough earthquake (but do we really think Joramun's horn does what it's supposed to?), or for it to melt - a very special kind of fire. An awakening ice dragon would be another option...and then Joramun's horn would actually be another dragon binder? This is too fantasy-heavy for me, I'm no good at these things. 



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Macha
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Yvy - yes, I seem to remember him denying it as well...but you know what he *didn't* deny? That we might see a kraken. Muahahaha bring it!

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YvyB
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Yes I heard he was shocked and speechless when someone asked him staight !

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Tir Airgid
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Very interesting thread TF!

To be honest, the idea that there could be an ice dragon at the wall never crossed my mind. I personally wouldn't like it, too many dragons already in the story for my taste. But it certainly is possible.

I always took the "fire consumes but cold preserves" to mean how the magic at the wall preserves the corpses from rising as wights and I think it'll be instrumental in how Jon's body is going to be mantained for whichever future purpose GRRM has for him.

I also adscribe both to the "we'll see a kraken" theory and "the wall will be brought down" theory. Don't know how, just see too many hints that the story might be heading there. Too many things that could be taken as foreshadowing that.

On the subject of dragons, I heard some people say there's a dragon under winterfell? Anyone knows why? I didn't pick up that at all. Dragonstone I understand... it's in the name, in the building,  hidden in Shireen's desease...? But winterfell?



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Aegon the Conqueror
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Winterfell because of the hot springs that heat the interior of the castle and the pools at the Godswood. This is just a guess but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

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Macha
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Tir Airgid wrote:

I always took the "fire consumes but cold preserves" to mean how the magic at the wall preserves the corpses from rising as wights 

 Eeem, but didn't this happen to Othor or whatever his name was? The one who attacked Mormont? Or was he 'wightified' before being taken to the Wall? But yeah, there's that whole scene in ADwD with Jon and Edd, where they go inspect the storage area under the Wall, too much detail for it not to be used in Jon's 'ressurection' somehow - which reminds me, a little offtopic but if GRRM is really going for the Jon warging Ghost and thus escaping death, won't Jon be stuck inside Ghost? Isn't that what happened to Varamyr? - he couldn't just go back to his body. 

You know, about the kraken, it is mentioned somewhere in AGoT or ASoS that a horn supposedly used to summon krakens was found at the castle of House Celtigar? Do I remember correctly? One of those islands near Dragonstone. Could be a hint, but if it's still there, how will it come into play? 

Re: the dragon beneath Winterfell, I find it a highly unlikely theory which is based solely on the hot springs there. To me, that was simply a device to 'improve' the aesthetics of the place and  make it unique (and probably so GRRM could have his scenes involving bathing and playing etc).



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Amsterpaul
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The cold preserved Maester Aemon that is for sure. But the wall itself being a sleeping Ice Dragon? I am not sure. It does fit and I have thought it is possible myself. But GRRM always leads this dance. We will have to wait and see. I think if the wall is an Ice Dragon than it will be up to Jon Snow to control it.



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Macha
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Um, but that Making Histories shows how the giants built the Wall. Of course, that can be only an oral tradition, and it may be more to it (some magic must have been used), but what did they do? Build it on top of a dragon?



-- Edited by Macha on Saturday 1st of December 2012 01:28:57 PM

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Tir Airgid
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Macha wrote:
Tir Airgid wrote:

I always took the "fire consumes but cold preserves" to mean how the magic at the wall preserves the corpses from rising as wights 

 Eeem, but didn't this happen to Othor or whatever his name was? The one who attacked Mormont? Or was he 'wightified' before being taken to the Wall?

 That's what I thought had happened... that he had already been wighted... But I only read the stuff once, maybe I misremember.



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Amsterpaul
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Why if there was a sleeping Ice Dragon from the Age of Heros how much easier would it be to start the construction from there with giants!



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Mags Giantsbabe
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" I should not have left the Wall," Aemon says to Sam. " Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes but cold preserves. The Wall...."

 

The cold being able to preserve could have the double meaning of Jon not becoming part of Westeros politics as he has a duty within the Night's Watch. His "flase" identity is actually protecting/ preserving him from harm, or preserving him for a greater fate.

Then it also means that the cold will be able to preserve Jon's body itself, should this happen. I remember a scene where Jon takes of his glove to touch the cold meat in the storage and that it is so cold that a bit of skin comes off his hand.

The Ice dragon may not be literal and is rather a dance with words, and George loves this. The Dragon metaphors may also be referring to Jon himself.

I also believe that there must be a reason why so much detail is givien to all the food at the wall, especially the amount of salt, as well as salt in everything edible under the wall,  like the pickled food and meats. Even Val makes a joking comment about it before she leaves. And again later, Bowen Marsh makes a passing comment to Jon as well about it, saying how they have all this salt at the wall, but not enough butter for winter. It is not just to show that Jon is being a practical leader by preparing for the future. Salt is also a preserver, is it not? And this preserving aspect of salt is also what ties in quite nicely with the "salt and smoke" prophecy, viewed from this angle. :)

Didn't George also mention that there will be some scenes that take place very far north of the Wall in TWoW? In the Lands of Always Winter? I wonder if this will be connected to Jon/ Bran's fates.

If the presence of an "Ice Dragon" at the Wall really points to Jon being, in fact, Azaor Ahai, it also wouldn't lessen Dany's importance, like alot of people fear. I just don't think Jon will sit on the throne, even if he is. His throne might be a differet one, in the north.



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Mags Giantsbabe
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Sorry, I mean "false identity".

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