I’m dropping my drawers a bit and showing my fanboi colors (and a sexy little barbell), but the shitstorm breaking all over WiCnet has got my dander up. Which, truly, doesn’t happen very often.
Cat was awesome at first.
I said it. She was. Catelyn Stark was a complicated character. Much of her was off-putting. Her being mean to poor wittle Jon Snow wasn’t at all nice. What the hell did people expect? Her husband brought home living proof of his wandering penis that moped about Winterfell in a pouty cloud of teenage angst. As the series wore on, the author never missed an opportunity to show us how bad Cat had it. After so much of this, I became fatigued. Yes, yes, yes. Losing your children sucks bad. Having a son crippled is bad. Having a husband beheaded is bad. Chick’s got it worse than Job. Really. We know! Stop hitting me over the head about how sad she is. I’m surprised the author didn’t end some of Catelyn’s chapters with the phrase, “But her moon’s blood was upon her, she didn’t have a choice.”
Where did it go wrong for me? At the Inn where Cat, a pretty well-developed character with some nice flaws, is reduced to a fucking lazy-ass plot device to get the Starks and Lannisters at war by taking Tyrion captive. Since then, her often wise counsel is diminished for the reader because of a few dumb-ass decisions. It’s the author’s fault.
Cat was awesome at first.
Discuss. I am particularly interested to hear what show-watchers think of Cat, as I haven’t watched GoT.
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As soon as those cameras are off I am going to fuck that little dog.
YvyB, we are in agreement on Jon, I understood why Cat didn't greet him with open arms. Not many would. When I read about her taking Tyrion prisoner, it didn't make a lick of sense to me. None. Maybe she wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but she certainly should know that such an action would mean war: while her husband and daughters were surrounded by Lannisters and I don't think she trusted King Robert much anyway.
-- Edited by Atreyu on Monday 25th of March 2013 08:40:14 PM
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As soon as those cameras are off I am going to fuck that little dog.
I never hated her, some people really hate her since her actions exacerbated the events in the book. Guess what if she didn't we wouldn't have a story would we? Yes, she nabs the imp provoking the Lannisters, yes she releases Jaime triggering discourse in Robb's men, and she is a real bitch towards Jon. But guess what, in real life people can make mistakes and be jerks and still be decent people. I find her portrayal in the books and mostly in the TV show to be strong, and respect her character, even if her actions are not what I would've done.
-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Tuesday 26th of March 2013 09:11:56 AM
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Well , the Jon Snow thing aside ... It's clear he didn't repeat it enough, as people still don't get the utter grief the poor woman went thro' and blame her for the entire war and everything thing else that happened JUST because she was mean to her husband's Bastard! If Jon hadn't been a sexy good looking kid ... the fans wouldn't give two hoots! Never mind the fact Ned told her to shut the fuck up when one time she tried to collar him on the subject and Bastards were not embraced in those days and she had to have one under roof! Please don't try the "but he was just a child" I don't care. No one can make you love someone Else's child ... I know from experience. I love Cat ... we are the same . She loved her kids to a fault .
As for the cheap plot points Atat , I don't know about such things .. I read as is written and don't consider things like that ... but you do have a point.
You´ve got to love atat dropping his socks. I´ll treasure them.
Never thought Cat was awesome, I guess I was one of those who couldn´t forget the way she treated an innocent child, not Jon, I don´t care especially for him. Just a child, but that´s personal so shouldn´t be a problem. But oh the endless punishment which I could have enjoyed if not exactly for what you said. That scene at the Inn was enough for me too. Why make her an idiotic plot device? I never liked how he writes women. It is his fault. I agree. Still don´t like the character in the show but I really like the actress.
“But her moon’s blood was upon her, she didn’t have a choice.”
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"I´d not prolongued the chewing up, Doc. Nor the being spat out. Not go out a cunt. It´s the dispatch I find inglorious. The whole delusory fucking self importance.". Al Swedgin ;).
I just think she panicked and thought I'll take him to my sister ... Who knew what a loony tunes she was !!!? She had been told by her long time friend ... Littlefinger ... that it was Tyrion. Now I ask you , if you came face to face with the person you were told had tried to kill your child ? You'd do nothing? I don't think so At
When Tyrion started to win her over , it was too late , Crazy lady and son were in charge.
Wow this is a tough one for me. I did not like Cat in the book for a long time. I only came around to her when she came to Robb's camp after leaving her batshit crazy sister. Losing a child will take you into a dark place from where there is no hope of recovery if you let it. Was the Tyrion thing stupid? Yep. Funny, but stupid. Letting the Kingslayer go, idiotic. But, it took HBO to show me how she was slipping into that place, a little at a time. Losing her husband, losing her child or children, or so she thought would make most mothers a stoneheart.
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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water. Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.
Damn, I wish this was a character I'd feel passionate about either way, but I really don't. But for the sake of this debate, I'll try.
I had mixed feelings towards her in the books. Maybe it's because I had nothing to relate to her in any way, it could be, but I wasn't invested in her character or her storyline at all. Yes, I think it was unfair of her to direct her anger at Jon when she should have directed it at her husband. I keep hearing this "he's the living proof..." argument, but if Jon would not be there would she just forget her husband fooled around with another woman? Come on. Nobody asked her to love that child, just not be cruel. For me, her attitude towards him showed only pettiness. Ned was right there, woman. Scream, hit him with a pan, do something. BUT that doesn't mean her character does not feel "real". Her character was well written precisely because this is exactly how a woman brought up in her conditions would treat this problem, by absolving the man of any guilt and finding another way to let her anger out. We're all flawed so yes, it only enriched her character. I won't comment on her decisions because they simply moved the story forward and at the time I didn't care if it was good writing or not. Overall, her character seemed consistent enough and I didn't mind GRRM constantly reminding me how bad she's having it (as I did in Tyrion's case, for example), probably because I knew her chapters would always bring something new.
As for the show, honestly, I have no problem in them making the characters more "likeable". They're already doing this with Cersei and - while I hate her with a passion and a part of me wants to keep that right to be able to hate her just as much in the show - I have no problem with this because I only care about consistency in the show, not in relation to the books. If her character is well developed in the show, and I think she is, I don't give a rat's ass if it differs from the books. I already know the books and I already imagined them in my head. I expect the show to give me something new, and if it opens a new perspective on a character, that's even better. Of course, this means I'll like some and dislike others, but I'll take that risk. And no, I did not get the feeling they're doing this to "put her in her place", as some commented. If we look back at the comments from last year, many people felt that Robb was the one being an ass to his mother, so please. Let's not generalize and let's not project our own opinion unto others. I think it's a bit childlish to think that just because a character is given a scene that was not in the books, it's because the writers don't like that character or they simply "don't get it". I don't understand this, but hey, people have the right to be passionate about characters they love and I respect that.
And to sum it up, I think Michelle is fantastic and I certainly enjoyed her character on the show more than in the books.
THE CAT THREAD !!!! AAAAAAARGGHHHH , i have to admit you're still quite polite on this one, but that old stuff is a little bit tiring. Here's my french dumbass point wich is not original nor complex. I don't like Cat , i don't hate Cat , first because it seems odd to me to hate a character as if she/he was a real person (yeah i know it's a biaised argument ). Wich is interesting in the books is that whatever the point of view is , we understand why characters act like they do. They all have very good reasons to behave like they do in the story. As a mom, i deeply understand the mother's portrait and the 'things i do for love' stuffs, it's a Martin's skill to convince me with this archetypal mother figure. I never found her unclever or bitchylike , just annoying sometimes, but a mother losing children can't be something else than devastated and boring to the rest of the world i guess. And as Martin fail to make us feel the fundamental grief she is supposed to cross, well she's just a member of the Pc whining brigade. She can be also very old fashioned lady like wich is logical considering her statut but very tiring when you're a 21th century reader. Fairley's acting is great imo, she gave warmth and tenderness to this character but keeping the duty and control freak sides.
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Je voudrais un croissant et une chaussette mignonne...
Damn, I wish this was a character I'd feel passionate about either way, but I really don't. But for the sake of this debate, I'll try.
I had mixed feelings towards her in the books. Maybe it's because I had nothing to relate to her in any way, it could be, but I wasn't invested in her character or her storyline at all. Yes, I think it was unfair of her to direct her anger at Jon when she should have directed it at her husband. I keep hearing this "he's the living proof..." argument, but if Jon would not be there would she just forget her husband fooled around with another woman? Come on. Nobody asked her to love that child, just not be cruel. For me, her attitude towards him showed only pettiness. Ned was right there, woman. Scream, hit him with a pan, do something. BUT that doesn't mean her character does not feel "real". Her character was well written precisely because this is exactly how a woman brought up in her conditions would treat this problem, by absolving the man of any guilt and finding another way to let her anger out. We're all flawed so yes, it only enriched her character. I won't comment on her decisions because they simply moved the story forward and at the time I didn't care if it was good writing or not. Overall, her character seemed consistent enough and I didn't mind GRRM constantly reminding me how bad she's having it (as I did in Tyrion's case, for example), probably because I knew her chapters would always bring something new.
As for the show, honestly, I have no problem in them making the characters more "likeable". They're already doing this with Cersei and - while I hate her with a passion and a part of me wants to keep that right to be able to hate her just as much in the show - I have no problem with this because I only care about consistency in the show, not in relation to the books. If her character is well developed in the show, and I think she is, I don't give a rat's ass if it differs from the books. I already know the books and I already imagined them in my head. I expect the show to give me something new, and if it opens a new perspective on a character, that's even better. Of course, this means I'll like some and dislike others, but I'll take that risk. And no, I did not get the feeling they're doing this to "put her in her place", as some commented. If we look back at the comments from last year, many people felt that Robb was the one being an ass to his mother, so please. Let's not generalize and let's not project our own opinion unto others. I think it's a bit childlish to think that just because a character is given a scene that was not in the books, it's because the writers don't like that character or they simply "don't get it". I don't understand this, but hey, people have the right to be passionate about characters they love and I respect that.
And to sum it up, I think Michelle is fantastic and I certainly enjoyed her character on the show more than in the books.
This. Her character development was great in the books, good in the show. I loved GRRM's take on motherhood through this character, although I sometimes got annoyed with her fixation on Robb and his growing role as King, but completely understood where it was coming from. I don't immediately start hating characters because of their poor choices. I only take moral issue with their actions if I view them as questionable. I generally appreciate faulted characters. Catelyn is a beautiful flawed female character, not flawed because she's a woman, but because she's human, just like someone like likable Jon is flawed. More importantly her actions, like alot of the characters' actions in this series, are shaped by lack of proper information regarding a matter (not having all the details). I believe this is a recurring theme in aSoIoF.
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“You take a mortal man, put him in control. Watch him become a god, see heads roll."
which I could have enjoyed if not exactly for what you said. That scene at the Inn was enough for me too. Why make her an idiotic plot device? I never liked how he writes women. It is his fault. I agree. Still don´t like the character in the show but I really like the actress.
