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Topic: ToJ - Spoilers Galore

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Lyanna Stark
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ToJ - Spoilers Galore
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All things Tower of Joy.  Place your who,what,why, where, when and how here.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Bastard de Hodor
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Why is this topic under "Movies"? Bad LS, bad! I refuse to post out of context!  bleh



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Lyanna Stark
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Fine, I will have Lord Storm put it in it's appropriate place, Mr. B!

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Macha
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I moved this thread in the Prophecies and Speculation subforum, seemed like the most appropriate place for now. Allons-y!

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Lyanna Stark
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To me, ToJ is a lot of things.  I don't believe Lyanna was taken against her will at any point in time by Rhaegar.  If timing serves, she must have been pregnant before he took her to Dorne.  Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed - is Ashara Meera and Jojen's mother? I have heard that one.  If she got pregnant by Brandon Stark, was that the replacement baby for Aegon? Did Ashara's child die in place of Aegon? If the book Aegon is really the child of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, wouldn't it account for Jon Connington always trying to hide Aegon's eye color? Or could Lyanna's and Rhaegar's baby be book Aegon, and Jon Snow is actually Ashara Danye's baby? Help me here, peeps!



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Tuesday 28th of January 2014 03:03:14 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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I think the timeline has been so blurry on the whole R&L and red herrings have been thrown to such a degree that technically you can force almost any possibility!

Personally I hope Jon is the child of Eddard Stark with Ashara Dayne. And MAYBE just MAYBE it could be that Aegon is Lyanna's child by Rhaegar. Eddard gave the child to Ashara when he delivered the Sword of the Morning and took their child (Jon) back with him in the North. And then Ashara fake her death and took Aegon overseas to Braavos for a spot of fresh air!

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Lyanna Stark
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Good one, TW! clap Ashara being alive, I totally dropped the ball on that one. Her body was never found, makes sense.



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Wednesday 29th of January 2014 08:41:45 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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Oh, thanks Lady Lyanna :) Ashara is always presumed dead.

Interesting fact regarding Aegon being R&L's son vs Rhaegar and Elia's. In a book forum a while back, I put up this theory (which I think it is very unlikely as in 99% LOL), and someone shot it down saying that Jon Connington's Aegon is almost 19 yrs old by the Griffin's and the boy's accounts. At least that is what they tell Tyrion. Which matches R&E's son's age.

Then someone found a paragraph in the book when Tyrion sees Aegon the first time I believe, where he says that the boy looks around 16 (I have to doublecheck that, as I did not personally looked for it) or "near enough to make no matter"(it said in that quote). First impression, no bias. That would put him at the same age as Jon and frankly at the same age R&L's son would be.

So all concluded that it could very well be a real Targaryan, in fact Rhaegar's son, just not he right one! Also it would make sense to pass him for Aegon, because Aegon was a legitimate son, with claim to the throne.

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Mags Giantsbabe
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I sometimes wonder if Rhaegar and Ly fell in love and she got pregnant by accident and Rhae married her so as not to shame her (the Targs did practice polygamy). The symbol of this love could be Tohrren's crown, which might be in Ly's tomb and evidence of Jon's legitmacy. How this all will be exposed however, I do not know :)

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Rygar
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Ashara Dayne =s nice titted septa on Griffs boat.

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TormundsWoman
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Rygar wrote:

Ashara Dayne =s nice titted septa on Griffs boat.

The Septa did say to Tyrion on the poleboat on the journey down the Rhoyne, that he is not the only one who needs to hide. In fact there were a lot of  people on that boat that had fake identities (maybe not Ser Duck). I suspect some kind of ASoIaF version of Witness Protection Program there... But yes, my vote for Ashara Dayne goes to the Septa.



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Lyanna Stark
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Mags reminded me of Tohrren's Crown, I totally forgot about that! Yep, got to be in the crypt somewhere.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Bastard de Hodor
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Something about the Tower of Joy (ToJ) makes me want to sing today!

ToJ, ToJ, ToJ! Shout its name to the realm,
Jump, jump, jump into the air and dive into the sea of darkness!
Love and betrayal, secrets and sadness, promises and madness!!

Oh, ToJ, ToJ, what are thou dire mysteries?
Is there any actual joy in that spire or is it only misery?

Let us in, let us pry....show us the facts that evade the eye!
What secret must be protected? What truth has been neglected?
Why so many deaths near your door? What did the bannermen ignore?

Oh, Lyanna, dear Lyanna, what secrets and flesh did you bequeath to Ned and Howland?
What drove Ned to isolation and brooding in the North and suspicion in KL?
What drove Howland Reed to escape and never be seen again?

The ToJ is the delicate mystery of ASoI&F. So many plans and storylines stem from the secrets within the ToJ's walls. As the echoes of screams and slaughter and secrets and death populate this savage place (which has since been torn down), GRRM truly defined irony when he named this sordid, isolated place of multi-generational despair.

I find the details of the status within the Tower when Ned and Howland arrived to be the most interesting, namely:

1) Did Lyanna give birth with the help of Ned/HR?
2) Did she die during the birth or shortly thereafter?
3) Had she given birth a few weeks/days/hours before and hung on until Ned got there?
4) Was the baby indeed hers or was she caring for another's baby?
5) What was the mortal wound she received beforehand or did she die because of the childbirth?
6) Was her wounding intentionally malicious because of the child she carried or the child she was protecting?
7) Was there someone else in the room with them as Lyanna lay dying? Was that person responsible for her death?
8) Was Lyanna's death the result of the battle being fought around the spire? Friendly fire perhaps?
9) What did Ned and Howland promise to each other afterward?
10) How long had she been in the ToJ? Did she travel the surrounding area secretly? How many visitors, royal or other, had she seen before Ned/HR arrived?
11) Is there a weirwood tee near ToJ?
12) What is HR up to these days? Doesn't he know the world is collapsing around him? Is he a warg/greenseer as well?
13) Perhaps a few details regarding the ToJ mystery is contained within Lyanna's statue within her crypt?

"Promise me, Ned."

This is what keeps me up at night (well, not really) and I hope the truth comes out via HR or Bran/BR. Did HR say anything to his kids about this, via a mindmeld, a locked mystery in their heads until the right "key" releases it?

-------

The other night, I had a sexual fantasy regarding the ToJ (maybe it was a dream...). Yes, dear Lyanna was involved and blood flowed from head to head and skin glistened. The walls spun and shook and the angels sang and there was some screaming involved. But just as moment arrived...Howland burst into the room and screamed..."What the fuck, Ned?"

Dammit, sort of ruined the moment.

-------

ToJ!! Rejoice in the mystery, the misery!
More Lyanna info.... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark.

Fuck yeah!  What a day, what a day!!!!



-- Edited by Bastard de Hodor on Friday 31st of January 2014 01:52:00 PM



-- Edited by Bastard de Hodor on Saturday 1st of February 2014 04:39:51 PM

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YvyB
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Well, I have read and re read some of the questions here ... none of which are offering up actual quotes from the books .. so I simply can not give any of them credence :/
IMO , Rheager and Lyanna met at the tourny , shagged , went off to the tower of Joy , Lyanna gave birth to a Prince (else why else were the king's guard there and not with the Prince fighting the war? ) She died giving birth . Cluching onto the flowers Ry had given her , whispered "Promise me" to her brother , ie. promise me you'll look after my son !

As for Ashara , she gave birth to a boy , Faegon swopped him with Elia's still born, on finding out he had survived , jumped (literally ) at the chance to look after him ... bring on Septer Dayne... (with stretchmarks ) who's a very good swimmer ...

As I too haven't offered up any quotes , feel free to dis my reasoning

As for Howland Reed ... he's on holiday with Benjen Stark !!

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YvyB
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006.JPG



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TormundsWoman
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Yvy wanted quotes!

This one is for Aegon being R&L's love child! He has the hair, he has the eyes, he did not have the age because as Aegon he'd be born about 2 yrs before R&L's baby. That would make the real Aegon 18-19. But here is the Tyrion quote I mentioned above where he sees the lad as one of 15-16 when he still doesn't know who the young Griff is.

"“Duck!” came a shout. “Haldon!” Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a  low wooden building, waving a wide‐brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well‐made  youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair. The dwarf put his age at fifteen, sixteen, or near enough to make no matter."



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YvyB
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Ah I forgot to add , I also go with R+L = J ... ;).... "Or near enough to make no matter " therefore ... he's not really bothered. He could actually be older or younger .. :D

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Rygar
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Sorry but Tower of Joy sounds like a porno or dildo.

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YvyB
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Probably deliberate ......;)

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Rygar
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GRRM has sex. A lot.

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Lyanna Stark
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If there is anything about R=L at all, I think it's Torrhen's crown. One of Cat's chapters leaves the fate of this crown very open-ended: "The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say."

Given all of the crown symbolism surrounding Lyanna, I think this really makes the most literary sense as an object, and would serve as a token at once proving Rhaegar's love (returning an item taken by his forebears), as well as a nod to Jon's royalty given their likely marriage. This bronze and iron crown in particular is more meaningful for Jon than a Targ relic, I think, because, while it hints about his parentage, that hint is about returning and restoring a Northern identity, something I don't believe Jon would give up even after learning about R+L. It would also add an interesting wrinkle to his vow to wear no crowns, given that a strong KitN/ King of Winter could be extremely useful as a power symbol behind which to rally.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
YvyB
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Did Jon not dream of going down to the crypts ...

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TormundsWoman
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Bastard de Hodor wrote:


3) Had she given birth a few weeks/days/hours before and hung on until Ned got there?

5) What was the mortal wound she received beforehand or did she die because of the childbirth?

-- Edited by Bastard de Hodor on Saturday 1st of February 2014 04:39:51 PM

 To the 3rd question: pure speculation of course, like much regarding ToJ, but Martin used "bed of blood" twice in describing the Lyanna ToJ scene in Ned's dreams. As it happens if one looks in the ASoIaF books for how labor and delivery of a baby's is described from a woman's perspective, it comes up several times as "in a bed of blood". One time mentioned in Cat's POV no less, which is ironic considering she had no love for Jon and the description fits Lyanna's death. I'll look when I have more time and put up some quotes for this.

To the 5th question: mortal wound? that has to be speculation like the childbirth we are all supposing. Who would wound her and for what reason? The KG would have died for her, defending her against her own northmen as proof we have the outside scene. None of her brother's men would hurt her. Ned and Howland Reed were there to save her. I think that's less likely than childbirth complications.



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Lyanna Stark
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Yep, good call, SisY , he explains his dream(s) to Sam, hoping for some clarity.  He has the same dream more than once, and it always ends the same, in darkness. Woooo, scary!



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Lyanna Stark
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YvyB's pic over at yahoo search for Ashara Dayne!!!!

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=w3i&type=W3i_DS,157,0_0,Search,20131249,19857,0,68,0&p=Ashara+Dayne



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Monday 3rd of February 2014 04:43:52 PM

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
YvyB
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

YvyB's pic over at yahoo search for Ashara Dayne!!!!

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=w3i&type=W3i_DS,157,0_0,Search,20131249,19857,0,68,0&p=Ashara+Dayne



-- Edited by Lyanna Stark on Monday 3rd of February 2014 04:43:52 PM

 Sweet! I didn't know about that one ..Euron Greyjoy is near the top too danceOoo I wonder what else is !



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Lyanna Stark
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Sooooo proud of you, SisY

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
YvyB
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Awww thanks ... there's loads of them ! Ha ha I 'm going through them all now ... Vain ? Moi ? teehee

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Rygar
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What about Evangeline Lilly's ass? I can tell you what comes up in my pants.

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Lyanna Stark
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“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
JapieQ
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My favourite passage of the books, ah back in the day when Gurm knew how to write. It's not this whole Tower of Joy mistery, I don't really care for that. But the way he wrote this scene, keeps giving me goosebumps everytime I read it anew. I'm actually glad it never made the show, it would never have lived up to the pages.

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TormundsWoman
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There's my #SwordOfTheMorning! How on earth could have Ned and Howland Reed defeat him?! I mean I need a Howland Reed POV fast!!!! I bet Ser Arthur Dayne was attacked from the back or blindsided somehow. No way that cragnon man took him out and save Ned at the same time.

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Rygar
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I agree with Jap. Well done there

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TormundsWoman
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Oh, I just reread a few days old article on wic.net! In short: the lady talked to Isaac at the premier and here is what she says:

“Yea, ya know it’s not all bad, right? That’s not so bad?” he said. I can’t spoil anything for the unsullied but our conversation then got crazy and long and involved lots of jumping around and waving our hands and talking about a Tower in the South of Westeros.

Did I say she talked to ISAAC?! that's your Bran. About a Tower in the South of Westeros. NO WAY THEY'D LET HIM SPEAK ABOUT THAT?! NO WAY! HAS TO BE A MISTAKE, RIGHT?! 


Also in the cycle Tower of Joy, and older response to a fan written by Martin when we were all young and innocent LOL. The italics represent what the fan said. Answers are regular font. That's in case you've not read it before...

January 02, 2002
CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

Cheers, I really hope you will answer these questions for me, I'll not bother you again if you do, I promise hahaha.



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Cary Storm
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I'm like, so used to Kit as John that I'm like, wait, why can't R = Robert and then I remember that Jon Snow doesn't look all raven haired in the books.

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Lyanna Stark
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Make it so, grrm , make it so

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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HAHAH Mr. Storm, you've got a mean streak in you!!! Jon Storm -- I like it. I'd love to see this where only R+L=J canon fans are posting!teehee

I still hope Jon's Ned and Ashara's and until Martins says otherwise we are both allowed our fantasies.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Sunday 23rd of March 2014 03:38:23 PM

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Macha
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TormundsWoman wrote:

I still hope Jon's Ned and Ashara's and until Martins says otherwise we are both allowed our fantasies.

I hear you.  Personally, all I ever wanted was for Jon to be Benjen's son, but nothing ever goes my way.



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YvyB
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I always understood it as Ly and Rhy had married ( targs can have two wives) making Jon a Royal baby , which is why Rhy left the kings guard protecting them , giving the orders that NO ONE were allowed near them . As Ned was on the opposite side brother or no ... that is why they fought??

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Rygar
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Ned was honor bound to bring Ly back. Rhapegar stole and raped her after all.




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Lyanna Stark
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Never going to buy that, Rygar. It was robert 's excuse for why Lyanna didn't love him. Could not admit to himself or anyone else the truth. Robert actually goes to war (or so we are lead to believe) over it. Lyanna already knew Robert had 2-3 known bastards running around, and it was her father Rickard's wish for her to marry him. We all know how well arranged marriages go: Cersei + Robert = nothing good. And, I believe Ned had guilty knowledge of she and Rhaegar anyway. How he and Robert stayed friends I will never know.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
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HA! Ry is standing by his boy Robert! We shall need to comfort him later when that proves the biggest mistake EVER!

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Macha
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

Lyanna already knew Robert had 2-3 known bastards running around

 Well at least Robert wasn't. already. married. pillowfight



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Rygar
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You don't think Ned believed that Rhapegar raped Lyanna? Not after his dad murdered his dad and brother?

 

Ned would side with his sister over Robert.   



-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 24th of March 2014 04:08:51 PM

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Rygar
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Does anyone actually believe that Ned would have started a war with Robert if he truly believed that Lyanna loved Rhapeghar? This same NEd who refused to plot the murder of Dany? Not likely.



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TormundsWoman
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Rygar wrote:

You don't think Ned believed that Rhapegar raped Lyanna? Not after his dad murdered his dad and brother?

 Ry, Aerys was not in good terms with Rhaegar. In fact he was having him under suspicion so to speak. And not only that but the king murdered the Starks AFTER Lyanna was "abducted". It makes not sense.



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Lyanna Stark
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Ry, don't get me wrong, I don't hate on Robert. Robert kept the peace for 15 years on the throne, he was a strong soldier, and not afraid to put his foot down when he needed to. You will also be hard pressed to find someone more infuriated by rape than me. If Lyanna actually had an affair with Rhaegar willingly I'm not saying that was morally right either. Happily or not, he was a married man. I'm not sure what happened at the TOJ, I have more than one opinion. My strongest hunch is R+L=J, but by no means is it carved in stone for me. I would love for him to be Benjen's child and be Lord of Winterfell.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
YvyB
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confuseI'm not sure what everyone is saying ?

I don't know who is arguing what point ! hmm



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TormundsWoman
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Macha wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

I still hope Jon's Ned and Ashara's and until Martins says otherwise we are both allowed our fantasies.

I hear you.  Personally, all I ever wanted was for Jon to be Benjen's son, but nothing ever goes my way.

 Benjen's and Ashara's? But when, how, Macha? I mean at Harrenhal that boy was probably 11 or something. I have to check a timeline.



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Rygar
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Until Martin decides to stop his little innuendos and outright tells us what happened at Whents tourney, you all are reaching. However educated.

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