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Topic: Season 4 - Book to screen comparison and discussion *Spoilers OK!*

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YvyB
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RE: Season 4 - Book to screen comparison and discussion *Spoilers OK!*
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Macha wrote:
Rygar wrote:

It fits perfectly with Jaime's character development. And if anything it helps demonstrate that he no longer is doing what Cersei wants. He is acting on his own here. Not wanting to murder Tyrion. Old Jaime would have probably would have agreef to do it if it meant being with Cersei and her being happy.

 Agreed 100%.

Redemption or not, he was hardly a saint in the books, even at this point. This is the same man that told Edmure "You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet." And while one may argue that he would never have acted on it, truth remains that Jaime does heroic deeds from time to time, but he's not a hero. His moral standing on rape when it comes to Brienne or Pia is different, because he respects one and pities the other. He has no such feelings for Cersei (of course he wanted to stop Robert, he was screwing the woman *he* loved), and like Rygar said, this is the moment where he breaks from under her influence. I'm not interested in cataloging  it rape or hate sex, but I thought it was a great scene that is very telling in terms of character development. If it works for the bigger picture on the show, then it works for me.

 Here,here



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Al Swearengen
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Thought that was a pretty good episode, honestly I've enjoyed 1 and 3 more than the Purple Wedding.

Aiden Gillen WTF! He doesn't even try anymore. Littlefinger is an interesting character but man the show version has been plucked from a pantomime production. At least he'll be paired up with Lysa soon so I'll be able to tolerate some of the up coming Eyrie scenes.

The alter scene with Cersei and Jaime angered me at first but I do recall those two rubbing body parts together either next to Joff or Tywin's corpse, I just can't remember if it was rape or not? In the books that is cause the show pretty much made Jaime into a heel with that scene.

Loved Tywin wasting no time on getting his hands onto Tommen. The look on Cersei's face as Tywin slowly manipulated Tommen was heartbreaking.

Not sure how I feel about Tywin's scene with Oberyn in the brothel, it was interesting, I didn't hate or love it.

I have no issue with Davos coming up with the idea to talk to the Bank of Bravos. My only problem with that angle is it seems a little rushed. Just give us a scene with Cersei blowing the bank off first and insulting them. Don't make Tywin do that cause the character is way more intelligent to make such a foolish error of judgement, plus he can afford to pay off some of the debts. If Tywin blew off the bank he'd look like a hypocrite infront of Tommen when he's just lectured him about wisdom.

Fine with Sam taking Gilly to Mole's Town it makes sense.

Loved Daario disposing of Mereen's champion and Dany's speech to the city, although Belwas I miss you

Despite Aiden's Razzie worthy acting I really don't have much to complain about.



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TormundsWoman
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Aww, Al! I was waiting to see what you thought of the Cersei & Jaime scene! And that is all you can remember!

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Al Swearengen
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TormundsWoman wrote:

Aww, Al! I was waiting to see what you thought of the Cersei & Jaime scene! And that is all you can remember!

The more I think about it TW the more it annoys me. The scene was poorly executed.



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TormundsWoman
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Al Swearengen wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

Aww, Al! I was waiting to see what you thought of the Cersei & Jaime scene! And that is all you can remember!

The more I think about it TW the more it annoys me. The scene was poorly executed.

 Here's another take on what the authors say from a Vulture interview:

You say it “becomes consensual by the end.” I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, “It’s not right, it’s not right,” and Jaime on top of her saying, “I don’t care. I don’t care.” It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?
It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

It looks like they are switching to something else now. My opinion for what is worth it: If you have to come out one day after and explain it.. You did not convey what you wanted to.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 21st of April 2014 07:26:49 PM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Al Swearengen wrote:

The more I think about it TW the more it annoys me. The scene was poorly executed.

 It was executed exactly as it was meant to be shown, two messed up people having messed up sex, worked like a charm!



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Al Swearengen
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:

The more I think about it TW the more it annoys me. The scene was poorly executed.

 It was executed exactly as it was meant to be shown, two messed up people having messed up sex, worked like a charm!

Not really. Unless you've read the books or study and analyze the scene it looked like Jaime raped Cersei.



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DonalNoyesArm
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I have read the book, the thing is I am not the one "over-analyzing" like many others. Maybe we should see how Jaime and Cersei act around each other in the next episode. Ya know...get a more complete picture.

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Al Swearengen
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

I have read the book, the thing is I am not the one "over-analyzing" like many others. Maybe we should see how Jaime and Cersei act around each other in the next episode. Ya know...get a more complete picture.

Don just look at the reaction around the forums I am not the only person who thought it looked like rape. If that was suppose to be a passionate incestual romp Alex Graves and D & D clearly missed their mark. It doesn't matter how they react around each other this season the audience will still remember Jaime raping her



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DonalNoyesArm
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I could do a frame by frame analysis, to show it was a fucked up sex scene, but not rape, but like Jaime says "I don't care".

The internet does what it does best, act it knows better and jump to conclusions. I really did not even took much note of the scene honestly. I was hoping the body of Joff would be knocked off the table from the

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Rygar
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I just watched it again. Cersei is upset that they are doing it in the Sept in front of Joff, not that she wants Jaime to not fuck her. She says" its not right" three times, and he says "I don't care" after each. Its very similar to the book.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Rygar wrote:

I just watched it again. Cersei is upset that they are doing it in the Sept in front of Joff, not that she wants Jaime to not fuck her. She says" its not right" three times, and he says "I don't care" after each. Its very similar to the book.

 Yup. 

I was more disturbed by that poor village that was raided by wildlings. Those poor people didn't do a thing.



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Cary Storm
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Dudes, I'll agree that the book was fucked up. But as far as the show is concerned, you guys need to work on your rape-detection skills: What is rape?



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Cary Storm
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And this: "[Update: George R.R. Martin has now weighed in about the debate on his personal blog. Essentially, he says that it’s unclear in the book scene whether Jaime rapes Cersei or not, as the scene is told from Jaime’s point of view, and is therefore only one side of the story; he also says that he’s unsure what Benioff and Weiss’s intentions might have been in their version, as he never discussed it with them.]"

It is UNCLEAR as to whether Jaime rapes Cersei in the book. And it was Jaime's point of view. Which is the point I was making in chat. Which some people tried to say I was saying something I wasn't.

EDIT: The above quote is from this article



-- Edited by Cary Storm on Monday 21st of April 2014 10:03:09 PM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Cersei and Jaime have a fucked up relationship...ya'll are painting their sex as black and white....when these guys couldn't be any grayer. These guys, love to argue, slap and powerplay since the first time we saw them, they are fucked in the head. At least I know that.



She was saying "not now" and "not here", she was protesting the timing and location. Feel free to disagree, but meh, whatever.



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Al Swearengen
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Not once did George say it was unclear.

"Disturbing for the wrong reasons" I.E I only wrote about twins fucking next to a rotting corpse not one character being raped by the other.



-- Edited by Al Swearengen on Monday 21st of April 2014 10:06:00 PM

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Lyanna Stark
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

 I was hoping the body of Joff would be knocked off the table from the

  FTW



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Lyanna Stark
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From the book:

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Lyanna Stark
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And, while I'm at it, Drogo/Dany in the book on their wedding night:

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. “No?” he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. “Yes,” she whispered as she put his finger inside her.



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Cary Storm
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Lyanna Stark wrote:

From the book:

She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. 

 "He never heard her." 

Pretty much sums up the whole male POV in an ambiguous situation like this describes.  And particularly Jaime's 



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Rygar
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So all they omitted was the "yes yes yes you're home" part, which wouldn't have made sense given the fact Jaime has been home for some time. Both start out as a rape, and both have Cersei telling Jaime "not here and it isn't right". Very similar scenes.

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andrea
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Cary Storm wrote:
 "He never heard her." 

Pretty much sums up the whole male POV in an ambiguous situation like this describes.  And particularly Jaime's 

 But then she said my brother, oh my sweet brother, I have you blahdiblah... I`m with Donnie here, it was fucked up sex in both the books and the show and all the time these two had sex, because sick. To me the scene can´t be seen as a rape, at all. If there´s some ambiguity in the way it was filmed is just to make people talk.

 



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Macha
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Cary Storm wrote:

Dudes, I'll agree that the book was fucked up. But as far as the show is concerned, you guys need to work on your rape-detection skills: What is rape?

 Come on, Cary. It was exactly the "consent" bit we were discussing as being ambiguously shot in the episode. There's no need for a black and white definition guide that I should then apply to a grey situation. I don't understand this need to reduce human relationships and interactions to black and white, especially when we're not discussing it in a court of law, we're discussing art and fiction. I don't need a social media stamp of approval before I can interpret a scene for myself.

 

Don - Ugh, the wildling raid was brutal. Perhaps one of the most disturbing scenes in a show full of disturbing scenes. Made me hate Tormund and Ygritte in a split second.

 

 

 



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Lyanna Stark
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I also did not like the Wilding raid, just makes folks think they are truly nothing but savages, which is not a stretch for Styr (). If Mance is uniting the tribes to escape the Others, why kill the innocent peasants? Ugh.

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Atreyu
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Regarding rapegate, I hold whatever position is most likely to get me a piece of ass.

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I loved the Wildling raid, I love those scenes where they show how the smallfolk always draws the short straw (like when Arya and the Hound are having a conversation on their horse while passing rotting corpses all over the place). I remember seeing some storyboards from season 1 where they wanted to shoot a scene in which the Mountain slaughters a whole village (which was cut because of budget constraints), stuff like that is more powerful than some peasant standing in front of Ned or a kid in front of the Night's Watch telling how everyone got butchered.

For all those whiny little bitches on WiC complaining about how D&D completely fucked up the character of Jaime: it's you people that make me wish the next book will never see the light of day so you can wallow in your fanboy-tears for all the rest of eternity having to live with the only conclusion of this story is the HBO version.



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Atreyu
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Ya know, in my literature classes, it always bothered me when people ignored authorial intent and came up with all kinds of crazy theses. I always erred on the author being better-informed on the subject matter than anyone else. Hearing GURM respond to the problematic nature of the Jaime/Cersei corpsefuck, I have seen the light. GURM, incredibly, has somehow managed to disqualify himself from remarking on his own works.

It all comes back to a 13-year-old girl being sold into marriage to an older man. She was subjected to sexual violence, but she eventually fell in love and calmed the savage nature of her brownish hubby. It's a love story, remember? The soil is bad. The books are poisoned and GURM is creepy.

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Al Swearengen
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JapieQ wrote:

I loved the Wildling raid, I love those scenes where they show how the smallfolk always draws the short straw (like when Arya and the Hound are having a conversation on their horse while passing rotting corpses all over the place). I remember seeing some storyboards from season 1 where they wanted to shoot a scene in which the Mountain slaughters a whole village (which was cut because of budget constraints), stuff like that is more powerful than some peasant standing in front of Ned or a kid in front of the Night's Watch telling how everyone got butchered.

For all those whiny little bitches on WiC complaining about how D&D completely fucked up the character of Jaime: it's you people that make me wish the next book will never see the light of day so you can wallow in your fanboy-tears for all the rest of eternity having to live with the only conclusion of this story is the HBO version.

 And it's people like you that makes me hope the tv show falls apart and the books are the only conclusion we get. Fuck off with that shit people have every right to be angry at D & D for messing around with the story and characters when it isn't needed.



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DonalNoyesArm
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Now now be nice people. Wishing either the book or tv series ill sounds like a lose/lose situation.

It is silly that they accuse the show of whitewashing Tyrion and blackwashing (sp?) Jaime, it's only a tv show....relax.


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Macha
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

It is silly that they accuse the show of whitewashing Tyrion and blackwashing (sp?) Jaime, it's only a tv show....relax.

 Shaddap, we never got to see Tyrion's purple dick.

.....whaaaa? I'm just filling in for Rygar.



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Tir Airgid
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are we thinking the kid's gonna skewer Ygritte at the attack?

what was Davos' idea, to ask for a loan from the IBB plain and simple? Or ye think there's some piracy gonna be involved?

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Al Swearengen
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Tir Airgid wrote:

are we thinking the kid's gonna skewer Ygritte at the attack?

what was Davos' idea, to ask for a loan from the IBB plain and simple? Or ye think there's some piracy gonna be involved?

Hmm I don't know.

Pretty much. It makes sense to speed that story up a little when we watched Stannis' army get decimated during Blackwater. They need funds for new ships, mercenaries etc.



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Macha
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Tir Airgid wrote:


Or ye think there's some piracy gonna be involved?

 No, but I'll tell you what will be involved: Stannis's secret weapon, the pout of doom. Those pussy bankers don't stand a chance.



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Tir Airgid
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Macha wrote:
Tir Airgid wrote:


Or ye think there's some piracy gonna be involved?

 No, but I'll tell you what will be involved: Stannis's secret weapon, the pout of doom. Those pussy bankers don't stand a chance.

 



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JapieQ
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This is a Winds of Winter spoiler, from the wiki:


Spoiler



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Rygar
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I honestly never thought that the Jaime and Cersei moon blood sex scene in the book was fun and consentual. I was amazed at how well they portrayed it on the show.



-- Edited by Rygar on Tuesday 22nd of April 2014 03:23:01 PM

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JapieQ
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I always imagined Cersei to be one of these girls:



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Macha
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JapieQ wrote:

This is a Winds of Winter spoiler, from the wiki:


Spoiler

 Yes, it was that

Spoiler
Are we oficially in TWoW territory now? Why yes, yes we are.  teehee



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YvyB
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I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

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Rygar
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I'd fuck them.

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YvyB
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I would with yours ... but I would put mine any where near!

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Al Swearengen
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YvyB wrote:

I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

 A man who spent part of his lifetime studying poison is classy ?



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Cary Storm
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Al Swearengen wrote:
YvyB wrote:

I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

 A man who spent part of his lifetime studying poison is classy ?

I want to see Oberyn's spear dripping with poison. 



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Al Swearengen
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Cary Storm wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:
YvyB wrote:

I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

 A man who spent part of his lifetime studying poison is classy ?

I want to see Oberyn's spear dripping with poison. 

 b4eaddcc37270015f2e82db50e03c8812ac6cef11768579fbd4e1b4eac8d6345.jpg



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Lyanna Stark
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YvyB wrote:

I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

 Ellaria to me is the strong silent type from the books, kinda like the Viper's right hand man (woman), not all in people's faces like she is on the show.  They were still to be respected, and seems like all this cathouse business is making them lose credibility to me.  I'm all for good sex scenes but this is just filler to me.



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Macha
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YvyB wrote:

I don't care for Eleria and Oberyn ... If she calls him "lover" one more time I gonna hurl ... I think they've made them sleezy and I thought of them a classy in the books ...

 Aaaaw, I like'em, including the "lover" bit.  I like how she looks at him every time he mentiones war or revenge, you can see that she's genuinely worried and that she fears for his life.

But yeah, not buying their sex act so far. Something seems off about it.



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DonalNoyesArm
Wielder of the Baratheon BANHAMMER
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Speaking of LOVAHS! biggrin



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Cary Storm
Lord Bannerman Of The Smileys
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Speaking of LOVAHS! biggrin

 NOT AVAILABLE IN MY COUNTRY LOLWUT? 



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"There's no cure for being a cunt."  Bronn
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Macha
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Cary Storm wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Speaking of LOVAHS! biggrin

 NOT AVAILABLE IN MY COUNTRY LOLWUT? 

 I can watch this and Cary can't?! How do you like your freedom now, EY? kraznys



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Al Swearengen
Lord Paramount Of The Ginger Minge
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This is way in the future but who do you think is going to deliver the line "For the watch" now that it looks likely that Donal won't be cast? I'd like to see someone like Grenn or Pyp say/shank Jon, I think it would give the audience a bigger gut punch considering those two are close friends of Jon's.



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