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Topic: The Winds of Winter Preview Chapters discussion

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YvyB
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The Winds of Winter Preview Chapters discussion
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Who's the girl captain that was supposed to give up at noon ?



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Sunday 23rd of March 2014 07:27:35 PM

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JapieQ
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Noone knows, noone cares.

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YvyB
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Ha ha thanks for nothing there Japie !

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Rygar
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Was that Creampie? Oh wait, Bukakke!

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YvyB
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Bokkoko ! Where did he get that from ! ?

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Atreyu
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YvyB wrote:

Who's the girl captain that was supposed to give up at noon ?



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Sunday 23rd of March 2014 07:27:35 PM

 Althea Vesrit. Oh ... wait. That's from Robin Hobb. Martin is a sneaky bastard.



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TormundsWoman
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Atreyu wrote:
YvyB wrote:

Who's the girl captain that was supposed to give up at noon ?



-- Edited by DonalNoyesArm on Sunday 23rd of March 2014 07:27:35 PM

 Althea Vesrit. Oh ... wait. That's from Robin Hobb. Martin is a sneaky bastard.

 Oh, for the love of God, Atreyu! It is the Malazza! The Yunkai's Girl General from Windblown. The one who rides the white horse with the red mane... The one who bread the soldiers herself. Sometimes I think you do these things on purpose.



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Rygar
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Ah who?

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YvyB
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Arya chapter released ... Just read it . I need more!!!

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Cary Storm
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I kind of liked that chapter!

EDIT: What I liked was the fact that the character 

Spoiler



-- Edited by Cary Storm on Thursday 27th of March 2014 09:45:20 AM

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andrea
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Cary Storm wrote:

I kind of liked that chapter!

 why?

I think it´s really ugly and disgusting. Poor arya, he hates her.

Uhoh, but floppy weiner so I laughed.



-- Edited by andrea on Thursday 27th of March 2014 12:03:23 AM

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I especially liked the part where the American Tolkien imagines having a preteen girl being made into a woman by a foot-long dildo after she is playfully groped and banters about fun rapey times in her future. Such whimsy!

 

ETA: I swear the only reason the brutal rape of this girl doesn't happen because it borders on child pornography. GM is probably cursing the prudish nature of the reading public: "It's OK to graphically depict an axe splitting someone's head but I can't have a little girl penetrated by an object? So unfair."

 

Fuck this guy.



-- Edited by Atreyu on Thursday 27th of March 2014 08:06:59 AM

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Cary Storm
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Yes, I had a problem with the beginning. "I'm heading for my first rape, oh joy!"

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Link, please.

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Cary Storm
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At his usual location



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It gets worse as it goes along. Martin is sexualizing her in a very disturbing way. And not in a pushing the envelope kind of way, either. It would be different if there hadn't be so much torture porn before, it would stand out and be very impactful. At this point, thousands of pages in, it's just gross.

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Reading those comments helping me to understand what I just read, that means that 

Spoiler

Meta levels of the normalization of child rape. 

Yes, the more I think about it (thanks, Atreyu, for helping me see the light...) the more disturbed I am. 



-- Edited by Cary Storm on Thursday 27th of March 2014 10:10:18 AM



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Cary Storm wrote:

At his usual location

 Thanks! Sorry, but I don't know what is "usual" location is



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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
Rygar
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It actually felt like reading GRRM back in 2001 again. Lots of filler and shock value stuff, but overall came to a fullfillng ending.

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JapieQ
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This was astonishingly bad, quite simply one of the worst chapters I have ever read. Guess what, a 5-year gap would have saved us from this miserable piece of trite. Thanks for ruining my favourite character you fat asshole.

RIP

arya-stark-950x565.png

resize_image.jpg

 



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Rygar
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Its not that bad. But then again GRRM never was great.

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Rygar
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JapieQ wrote:

This was astonishingly bad, quite simply one of the worst chapters I have ever read. Guess what, a 5-year gap would have saved us from this miserable piece of trite. Thanks for ruining my favourite character you fat asshole.

RIP

arya-stark-950x565.png

resize_image.jpg

 

Where did you think Arya was headed?  It seems like she is well on her way for becomming Deaths instrument, the path she chose.  I'm not surprised by her actions in this chapter nor do I think she's ruined.  In fact, the fact that she aborted her current "mission" to claim one of her "list" seems well within her character arc. 

 

I am not being a dick just curious as to why you think she's ruined.

 



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Macha
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Da fuck did I just read....At first I thought it would be just boring - this is the point where I admit I'm so tired of Arya's wolf dreams, maybe because nothing ever happens and all she sees is Nymeria being the equivalent of a bloody cheerleader/ the most popular chick in the woods. It's getting really stale.
But then there was just rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape oh joy oh joy rape rape rape rape rape rape floppy weiner rape rape rape rape ha ha ha rape rape rape rape Mercy Mercy rape rape lame twist rape rape yay late for my rape. Screw this shit, it turned my stomach, and I'm not even that sensitive. Not only it's sick and tacky, but it's also bad writing. And guess what. It's not even a recently written chapter, but one of those old as balls ADwD discarded chapters. Because gurm.



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Rygar
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Lol Macha

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Rygar
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I'm just surprised you all feel this way now. I don't think his writing style has changed in the least. He's always been like this.

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Macha
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Rygar wrote:
  In fact, the fact that she aborted her current "mission" to claim one of her "list" seems well within her character arc. 

 I agree with what you said about her becoming Death's instrument, Ry, but the problem - the way I see it - is that we already knew that, didn't we? Isn't this basically the same thing she did when she killed whatshisname, Night's Watch dude that abandoned Sam and Gilly. He's showing the exact same thing, only being more disgusting. To me that feels like he's deliberately trying to push people's buttons and I find that cheap. If I wanted that, I'd go watch a Von Trier movie and be done with it.



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Macha
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Rygar wrote:

I'm just surprised you all feel this way now. I don't think his writing style has changed in the least. He's always been like this.

 Dunno, I think he had some fantastically good chapters in previous books. Even in ADwD, I loved Theon's chapters. But nothing of what was released from TWoW feels good to me or like it's advancing the story in any way. Well, no, Theon's chapter (again), that I kinda liked. The rest is just filler and no, I don't buy the "of course it's filler since they're preview chapters, he doesn't want to give anything away" argument. The only reason they're releasing these ones is that most likely he doesn't have anything else in a publishable state.



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Rygar
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I think its because she still hasn't let go of her past. Until she does, she won't be a FM. I think its necessary to show her failures.

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Macha wrote:
Rygar wrote:
  In fact, the fact that she aborted her current "mission" to claim one of her "list" seems well within her character arc. 

 I agree with what you said about her becoming Death's instrument, Ry, but the problem - the way I see it - is that we already knew that, didn't we? Isn't this basically the same thing she did when she killed whatshisname, Night's Watch dude that abandoned Sam and Gilly. He's showing the exact same thing, only being more disgusting. To me that feels like he's deliberately trying to push people's buttons and I find that cheap. If I wanted that, I'd go watch a Von Trier movie and be done with it.

 Agreed but I've come to expect this filler and shock stuff so it doesn't bother anymore.  I've also stopped getting aroused.



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JapieQ
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Because what Macha said Ry, just look at the writing, it's so fucking bad. I never minded where her arc was going, whatever dark place it is. What GURM did here is he projected his own sick fantasies on an 11-year character, trying to veil it behind some "character development." I am sad to see loads of people drinking the kool-aid on various places. I am hoping this book will never see the light of day so people won't embarrass their selves by praising it.

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Macha wrote:

But then there was just rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape oh joy oh joy rape rape rape rape rape rape floppy weiner rape rape rape rape ha ha ha rape rape rape rape Mercy Mercy rape rape lame twist rape rape yay late for my rape.

 one of those old as balls ADwD discarded chapters.

 Well I counted the words rape, titties, cock and nip I think, maybe some more but better forget. Results were: rape and variations 11, titties maybe 8 or 9, cock 6 and nip don´t remember... oh, and I forgot weiner. Thing is, while reading that ugly thing I could have sworn there were a lot more of those words. That´s how ugly and twisted that chapter is.

Did I say ugly?barf



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Cary Storm
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All aboard the GRRM gratuitous rape express! tugboat

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Rygar
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JapieQ wrote:

Because what Macha said Ry, just look at the writing, it's so fucking bad. I never minded where her arc was going, whatever dark place it is. What GURM did here is he projected his own sick fantasies on an 11-year character, trying to veil it behind some "character development." I am sad to see loads of people drinking the kool-aid on various places. I am hoping this book will never see the light of day so people won't embarrass their selves by praising it.

 I'm not praising it.  I'm just not expecting much at this point and never have from his writing.  Thats why I have never read them more than twice in 14 years.   And I don't think that GRRM did anything more outlandish here than in any other disturbing creepy sequence.  



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Macha
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andrea wrote:
 That´s how ugly and twisted that chapter is.

Did I say ugly?barf

 I just rememberd, finally I have an excuse to use this gif

Dear Mercy Chapter,

dieinafire_zps3e960e4e.gif



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JapieQ wrote:
RIP

resize_image.jpg

 Noooooooooooooooo, Knurk´s avatar



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Rygar wrote:
 I'm not praising it.  I'm just not expecting much at this point and never have from his writing.  Thats why I have never read them more than twice in 14 years.   And I don't think that GRRM did anything more outlandish here than in any other disturbing creepy sequence.  

This. Through the first books the sex and violence was disturbing, but in a good way. Mostly. But the books are so long and there are so many of them, GM has put himself in the position of having to present depravity in a new way or it stagnates. By the time I got to the Reek/Jeyne/Ramsey rape, I was no longer shocked. It could've been a powerful scene, but so much sick shit had gone on before that I was numb by then. Same thing here with the new chapter. It's no longer shocking. It's just gross.



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Well then... Ry, I almost gave you a hug right now!

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YvyB
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Kids can be very blase about sexuality before their own hormones kick in. I read Arya’s attitude towards sex as very mechanical. Sex to her seems like just something she knows about from hanging out with sailors and whores (I mean she was recommending brothels as Cat of the Canals) but doesn’t feel anything about on a gut level. Her attitude towards fake-seducing Raff seemed the same as her attitude towards getting fake-raped by a stuffed dildo–e.g., something that must be done well to achieve an end, but not something she has any primal, hormonal reaction to at all. Her only real feeling is the desire to kill him. She even thinks Raff’s tongue is gross and thinks of what she is doing as “licking his tongue” rather than “kissing him back” or something like that, which strikes me as something a jaded 11 year old would think much more than how a 16 year old with her own sexual urges would think of it.

This !!!!

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My main gripe is actually not the creepyness of this chapter, it's the shoddy writing. All of a sudden Arya uses her sexuality, while in previous chapters she was oblivious to the sexual insults men screamed at her. Where did this transformation come from? Nowhere, GRRM rather spends 5 pages of describing how Arya walks to the theater (ugh) than explaining why or what encouraged her to use this new tactic. Can you imagine how much better it would be if Arya had seen or heard of a woman using her sexuality like this in a previous chapter? Now it just comes out of the blue and she does it with sheer determination, it takes me out of the story. She kills Raf with a cut Yoren learned her in A Clash of Kings, which is pretty awesome and good writing. The way she lured Raf to the room, was not. So when sex enters a story like that, I call bullshit on the author and call him a pervert.

Now here would normally have ended my argument, but GRRM provided us with a little background information on this chapter yesterday:


 I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history.  It's true.  The first draft was written more than a decade ago.  Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous "five year gap," her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived.   Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books.  Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS.  But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS.  Of course, it has been revised, tightened, polished, and tweaked at every step of the way, so the version on my website has some significant differences from the "five year gap" version.

Now the detractor in me just gets PISSED THE FUCK OFF. When I read this chapter initially, I thought: "man, this would be a cool chapter after a 5-year gap with a 16-year old Arya." And guess what, he wrote it like this. ARGHHHHHH asshole, why did you scratch the 5-year gap!?!?!? So he wrote this with a 16-year old in mind, and then simply changed the age to 11 but he kept the sex in. For me this is some really fucking lazy writing. What also annoys me about this, is that this is the third or fourth Arya chapter that's basically the same story, only here she kills someone off her list. So what GRRM did to fill in the 5-year gap for Arya is use the same story he had, just put a different face and have another victim for her in various chapters. This is a prime example of filler, what was AFFC and ADWD chock-full off sadly.

 



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YvyB
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Ok , Firstly I understood , where she was at this moment in time , straight away. I didn't need someone to fill in the blanks . I understand where she has got her sexual references from ... the life she is living ! I don't feel she has been sexualized AT all ... she is using her head to do the thing she needs to do . She has never done this before and wonders if this will even work . I don't know about what was missed out or removed from previous books and frankly I don't care . I just want the Story . That's all I care about .
Secondly , I don't find it creepy ! At all ! She's a sassy girl who has made the best of every given situation . I don't think she was going to be raped ... it was Mummery , I also am not sure yet that she was being Sansa ? I didn't get that . Shea maybe but Sansa?
Was she raped and murdered ? Anyhoo I'm veering from your post Japie , I understand I think , where you are coming from , but I am , how can I put it , an unsullied reader so I don't have preconceptions , I just read the story.

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Rygar
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I thought Arya was 14-15? I cant remember this shit. I do know that she put on the face of a dead kid. So, that's pretty fucked up.

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Did anyone else had this song playing in their mind while reading it?



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YvyB
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Ha ha No! I had Tony Curtis' version of Cary Grant in Some like it hot ! " Mercy,mercy, mercy " in my head.

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Cary Storm
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Here's what I had. grandpa



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TormundsWoman
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LOL @ Mr Storm: That is hilarious!! I would have never got that one at reading the chapter. Oh, Mercy, Mercy, Mercy me!

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All aboard the Anne Sexton "I need a daddy" express!



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YvyB wrote:

Ok , Firstly I understood , where she was at this moment in time , straight away. I didn't need someone to fill in the blanks . I understand where she has got her sexual references from ... the life she is living ! I don't feel she has been sexualized AT all ... she is using her head to do the thing she needs to do . She has never done this before and wonders if this will even work . I don't know about what was missed out or removed from previous books and frankly I don't care . I just want the Story . That's all I care about .
Secondly , I don't find it creepy ! At all ! She's a sassy girl who has made the best of every given situation . I don't think she was going to be raped ... it was Mummery , I also am not sure yet that she was being Sansa ? I didn't get that . Shea maybe but Sansa?
Was she raped and murdered ? Anyhoo I'm veering from your post Japie , I understand I think , where you are coming from , but I am , how can I put it , an unsullied reader so I don't have preconceptions , I just read the story.

 You are not the only one who thinks this Yvy! Many of the readers think like you, you'll find. Just not defending Martin's chapter a lot because they think he could have done better using the 5 year gap.

I agree in part with a lot of what you've said. The idea that she is "over sexualized" as I have seen it written in so many places is rather out there IMO. And it is not just the description of how she feels at being kissed by Raff, it is her way of approaching the "target" she has identified from her hit list.

Martin does describes at least two times in the chapter how her environment at Izembaro really is. Girls provide services on the side. And she is warned against it by one of her coworkers there and she remembers it as a way for us to get the backdrop for what is about to happen. Then she rejects one of the little people's advances in the coldest manner possible. Is that oversexualizing it? or is the idea of tweaking a 12 yr old nipple so horrendous that people suddenly lose sight of what the chapter's plot and backdrop really is supposed to deliver? That is for each to decide for his own.

Then we have her assessing the situation and using exactly what means she knows won't raise suspicions. Truth is (I said it before at wic), I was horrified and impressed how cool and calculated she acted. A real assassin. What I do not understand is why most criticism left out that part! Would she have acted like that if that was not THE BEST WAY to get to him?!

Anyway I also will say that I find it creepy because this girl, after all she has been through got to this. I know that's where she was supposed to arrive, as Ry said. Perfectly in character with her story.

I just cannot take it so in stride to see Ned Stark's daughter brought to killing in cold blood at 12, and then wonder if the kill should have not been done after bring him downstairs so she won't have extra work to do... Seriously, tweaking her nipples suddenly is not the only creepy thing, when you really get what happens in her psyche and how broken and detached she is now without the guidance and love of her family.



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JapieQ
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Arya being a stonecold assassin in 1 year annoys me just as much as her seducing men to reach her goals. I just wonder why GRRM feels the need for me to fill in the gap of Arya's seducing qualities on my own yet keeps insisting me to know how sour every grape is she eats, how crooked every cobble is she steps on, and what shade of yellow the breeches are of every fellow she encounters.

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I'm in with a little of everyone here. Do not need all the ad nauseum details he (GRRM) puts in here i.e., shades, food, steps, etc.. Does seem like an old DWD left over chapter. I for one love her becoming an assassin, she and her sister are opposite sides of a coin. As far as she knows, her family is wiped out save for Jon Snow and Sansa and Sansa married to Tyrion, which would never happen to a Stark, in her father's lifetime. It's a coping mechanism, survival, and yes, revenge. I do wish he would get on with Nymeria, that's what pisses me off. Get her back to her wolf, damn it. As to the rape stuff, it's all around her and she's been exposed to it/seen it before, no doubt. She just puts herself into the character and it's a bit of an out-of-body experience. It's happening to someone else entirely.

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Rhaegar, despite wounding Robert, was struck down with a massive blow from Robert's warhammer, which scattered the rubies encrusted in Rhaegar's armor under the water.  Rhaegar died with Lyanna Stark's name on his lips.

 
TormundsWoman
Defender Of The Realm
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So, I noticed like one friend pointed out that Arya's line when killing Raff was actually included in this ep when killing Polliver. Anyone think that's a good sign because Martin said that's it for chapter samples, or is it just me?!

My reasoning (it was called a pretzel by said friend) was that if for example this season would have included WoW material for Bran (which is the most delicate and slim), there would have been a real need for Martin to post a Bran chapter so his storyline would not be first presented in the show. As it is, I'm thinking Season 4 is safe for people like me who prefer to read first and see later.

Any others think like me?

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