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Topic: Season 5, book to screen discussion *spoilers OK!*

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Lord Paramount Of The Ginger Minge
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RE: Season 5, book to screen discussion *spoilers OK!*
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Oh Al we know you will tune in next week, because you will still be curious how things turn out.


Honestly Don I really don't know at this point. My grievances with the deviations aside this season hasn't been particularly great, the quality of the show to me seems to be drastically declining at an alarming rate.

I am debating whether I should take a break and let the rest of the episodes build up, or quit altogether. I know you guys still enjoy the show and that's fine, but personally it's starting to become punishment for me, I shouldn't be watching something that's making me angry and dejected, a series like GOT should be leaving me super jazzed and in awe.

Maybe I need to cool off, I was pissed off after Selmy died but was able to calm down. But can I come back from this? I don't know.

If only Reek intervened or Stannis' war horns started blaring cry



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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

And here is grrm in his own words, in response to yesterdays ep.

http://grrm.livejournal.com


 "David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can."

Are they though? I am not sure. The Dorne stuff certainly isn't evidence of that. The scene with Stannis and Shireen was though.

I get what George is saying, it's just very difficult for me to separate the two.



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Maybe it might be better to binge the remaining 4 episodes, since they are bound to stir up more stuff till the end of the season.

But the moment Sansa became Fake Arya, I kinda knew this was coming. The reason people are upset is not the act, afterall what happens to Jayne Poole is quite worse, it is the fact it happened to Sansa. Funny how Sansa was so hated in season 1 and now folks are quite protective of her.

There is no way to see the true impact of last nights final scene without seeing the reprocussions. I have a feeling we have seen nothing yet.

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I never expected D & D to go that far though, I thought for sure Reek would escape with Sansa before Ramsay even got his hands on her. Like I said before it felt gratuitous to me, a moment created to shock fans.

If they did it to give Sansa or Reek motivation to kill Ramsay then that's just over the top IMO, everyone already has more than enough motivation to rid Westeros of that monster.

The whole angle just doesn't make sense to me, Littlefinger's prized asset has now been defiled. Lets have Ramsay rape Sansa so Littlefinger can muster the Vale forces to save her disbelief



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Al Swearengen wrote:

I never expected D & D to go that far though, I thought for sure Reek would escape with Sansa before Ramsay even got his hands on her. 


 Sansa has been spared much awfulness, sure she saw her father die and she got beat by Ser Meryn. The prospect of rape has loomed over Sansa since she was left alone in Kings landing. In season 2 she was saved by Sandor during the riot. Cersei said that Sansa would be raped when Stannis would siege the city, but the battle result changed that.  In season 3 she was threatened by Joff her wedding night but Tyrion defended her honor and did not consumate. Westeros is an awful place and it was bound to catch up with Sansa, and now it has.



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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:

I never expected D & D to go that far though, I thought for sure Reek would escape with Sansa before Ramsay even got his hands on her. 


 Sansa has been spared much awfulness, sure she saw her father die and she got beat by Ser Meryn. The prospect of rape has loomed over Sansa since she was left alone in Kings landing. In season 2 she was saved by Sandor during the riot. In season 3 she was theatended by Joff her wedding night but Tyrion defended her honor and did not consumate. Westeros is an awful place and it was bound to catch up with Sansa, and now it has.


 Except it hasn't though, Sansa's still safe in the Vale at the moment.

Westeros is a horrible place no doubt but Littlefinger would never risk Sansa like that, unless he rapes her himself in TWOW which might be a possibility.

It just doesn't sit well with me. Did we really need to witness another atrocious act happen to a Stark?



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Al Swearengen wrote:
 Did we really need to witness another atrocious act happen to a Stark?

 LOL, of course we do! This show should be called, "Sucks to be a Stark!"



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Lord Paramount Of The Ginger Minge
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:
 Did we really need to witness another atrocious act happen to a Stark?

 LOL, of course we do! This show should be called, "Sucks to be a Stark!"


 They just can't catch a break can they cry God knows what D & D have in store for Arya.

Rickon seems to be the only safe Stark, only because everyone keeps forgetting about him



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My hope next time we see Rickon he has a full beard and is BLOODY TOUGH! greatjon

GRRM is right that D&D have the unenviable task of adapting his novels, don't forget that Bran is sitting this season out PLUS so are all the Greyjoys. I can only imagine the show would've collapsed at its own weight if they had been included.



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I hope to god the Greyjoy's and the Kingsmoot have been cut, seeing how they have handled Dorne makes me want D & D no where near that material.

Hell I'd even be happy if D & D just pretended like Balon and Asha never existed biggrin



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Grand Maester of the Sausage Manufacture
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if you hate the show stop watching it.
last night's ep was amazing, what they did to Sansa was awful but kinda inevitable after they went that route, but now the Boltons are on everyone's shitlist, let's see how that turns out.

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Al Swearengen wrote:
DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Al Swearengen wrote:

I never expected D & D to go that far though, I thought for sure Reek would escape with Sansa before Ramsay even got his hands on her. 


 Sansa has been spared much awfulness, sure she saw her father die and she got beat by Ser Meryn. The prospect of rape has loomed over Sansa since she was left alone in Kings landing. In season 2 she was saved by Sandor during the riot. In season 3 she was theatended by Joff her wedding night but Tyrion defended her honor and did not consumate. Westeros is an awful place and it was bound to catch up with Sansa, and now it has.


 Except it hasn't though, Sansa's still safe in the Vale at the moment.

Westeros is a horrible place no doubt but Littlefinger would never risk Sansa like that, unless he rapes her himself in TWOW which might be a possibility.

It just doesn't sit well with me. Did we really need to witness another atrocious act happen to a Stark?


Show LF doesn't really care about Sansa as much as he tells her he does. He played her, when she thought she was playing him. His "love" for her was a trick that makes Sansa trust him and believe he has her best in mind, when the truth is she's just another pawn to him. Exactly like Jeyne Poole. Thos episode revealed his true plan: use Sansa to get the North, at any cost. If Stannis wins, Sansa is given the North by him (instead of Jon, who refused). If the Boltons win, LF already has a deal with them. Him handing them Sansa requires eventual payback, and they'd pretty much have to support him if he goes against the Throne. And then there's plan C: if all else fails, stick with Cersei and kill them all- including Sansa. LF has secured the North, no matter what happens. Sansa's well being with Ramsay is less important to him. 



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I agree with all of that kent. Honestly, LF's plan is a masterstroke. No matter how it goes down, he's pretty much guaranteed to win.

That said, I think ultimately the fact that he's completely betrayed Sansa is what will bite him in the ass. I reckon Sansa manages to get herself some loyal northern forces, and betrays LF when he arrives with his army (assuming he arrives). Perhaps that will be the main consequence of the rape scene, Sansa completely losing faith in LF

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I have always suspected that Book Sansa would eventually turn on Petyr at the precise moment. I don't see how TV Sansa will ever be able to trust him again after last night.



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Cosca wrote:

Perhaps that will be the main consequence of the rape scene, Sansa completely losing faith in LF


 Huh, didn't see it that way, interesting. Though in the TV universe Ramsay's cruelty is less well known, so LF might not have known this would happen to Sansa. Still he knows the Boltons are assholes and he took that risk.



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Al Swearengen wrote:

I have always suspected that Book Sansa would eventually turn on Petyr at the precise moment. I don't see how TV Sansa will ever be able to trust him again after last night.


 We can hope that she'll be his end



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The preview for next week looks all kinds of awesome freakout, it'll really build up the tension in the North. 

But muh baby Stannis looks pretty much fucked. 



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Macha wrote:

The preview for next week looks all kinds of awesome freakout, it'll really build up the tension in the North. 

But muh baby Stannis looks pretty much fucked. 


 Yeah seems that the Boltons are meeting Stannis in the field. OMG it is gonna be a mess.



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Just one tiny rant  crackers, but it's beyond me how can so many people think that Alayne dancing and eating lemoncakes chapter after chapter in the Eyrie is soo much more compeling for Sansa's development as a "player" (god, I've grown to hate that word) than the show's storyline so far. 

The show made me *love* Sansa this season, which is far from anything GRRM ever did to this wretched character. But that's just me. 



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Macha wrote:

Just one tiny rant  crackers, but it's beyond me how can so many people think that Alayne dancing and eating lemoncakes chapter after chapter in the Eyrie is soo much more compeling for Sansa's development as a "player" (god, I've grown to hate that word) than the show's storyline so far. 

The show made me *love* Sansa this season, which is far from anything GRRM ever did to this wretched character. But that's just me. 


 I would be fine with it had Sansa actually picked up some of LF's cunning or tactics, but she seems to of just reverted back to her old self since she arrived at Winterfell. The bath scene was the only moment she seemed to show any hint of progression.

Whilst Sansa's stuff in AFFC isn't the most thrilling, I'd still rather read that than resort to using the character for shock tactics in the show.



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book sansa is a snoozefest.
that said, i think show Sansa hasn't had the time to show her cunning, yet.

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Macha wrote:

Just one tiny rant  crackers, but it's beyond me how can so many people think that Alayne dancing and eating lemoncakes chapter after chapter in the Eyrie is soo much more compeling for Sansa's development as a "player" (god, I've grown to hate that word) than the show's storyline so far. 

The show made me *love* Sansa this season, which is far from anything GRRM ever did to this wretched character. But that's just me. 


 THIS! clap



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Al Swearengen wrote:
Macha wrote:

Just one tiny rant  crackers, but it's beyond me how can so many people think that Alayne dancing and eating lemoncakes chapter after chapter in the Eyrie is soo much more compeling for Sansa's development as a "player" (god, I've grown to hate that word) than the show's storyline so far. 

The show made me *love* Sansa this season, which is far from anything GRRM ever did to this wretched character. But that's just me. 


 I would be fine with it had Sansa actually picked up some of LF's cunning or tactics, but she seems to of just reverted back to her old self since she arrived at Winterfell. The bath scene was the only moment she seemed to show any hint of progression.

Whilst Sansa's stuff in AFFC isn't the most thrilling, I'd still rather read that than resort to using the character for shock tactics in the show.


 I do, in fact like the progression with Sansa over that of the books, but I am extremely disappointed in the show runners providing Sansa with agency in the bath scene, giving us some hint of a positive new direction that the character is going, and then ending the episode on the helpless rape she was forced to endure.  Even if it wasn't as bad as the books, but be reminded, that Jeyne was a character that nobody really cared about.  The very least they could have done is given us a follow up scene with Sansa visually becoming resolute. 



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Cary Storm wrote:

 I do, in fact like the progression with Sansa over that of the books, but I am extremely disappointed in the show runners providing Sansa with agency in the bath scene, giving us some hint of a positive new direction that the character is going, and then ending the episode on the helpless rape she was forced to endure.  Even if it wasn't as bad as the books, but be reminded, that Jeyne was a character that nobody really cared about.  The very least they could have done is given us a follow up scene with Sansa visually becoming resolute. 


 I think her actions make sense in the episode, telling a servant girl that is speaking out of turn, is something she does easily. She was even mouthing off to Septa Mordane in season 1. But the bedding scene is new territory for her and it made sense for her to be completely out of her wheelhouse. She was told by Littlefinger to make Ramsay happy, so her being complacent and meek at that instant is logical. 

I do hope that this is her hitting bottom, and now this sets the wheel in motions for her to get revenge, through Theon, Brienne and Stannis....hell...maybe even herself.



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Here's a thought. Did anyone think that the fact that the wedding was beneath the weirwood tree means that Bran saw the whole thing?

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WEIRWOODNET! weirwoodfreakout



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I don't understand how people can say that scene was gratuitous or simply for shock value when it was based directly on what happens to Jayne Poole in the books, except to a lesser extreme. Is it because it was to Sansa? I think the way it was filmed, having the viewer experience it through Theon's reactions, while brutal, was pretty brilliant, and it also spared the viewer from having to see it the way we had to see what happened to Dany. The "wedding night" with Drogo was bad enough, but the episode where Dany first "escaped" into her dragon eggs...used focusing on those to remove her from what was happening to her, that crushed me. That scene last night was gawd awful, but it wasn't as awful, at least for me, as it was watching Dany go through what Drogo did to her over and over.

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Cary Storm wrote:

Here's a thought. Did anyone think that the fact that the wedding was beneath the weirwood tree means that Bran saw the whole thing?


 Oh, I was definitely thinking that.  I even wondered if we won't have a brief flash next season of Bran seeing it through the weirwood, or something.



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Just thought of this, but I think the decision to have that scene with Tyrion telling Jorah about his father's death at the hands of his men has much to do with foreshadowing Jon's (possible) death in similar circumstances at the end of this season.

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From the preview it seems Olly is staying at the Wall, so if Jon gets stabbed it won't happen till he comes back from Hardhome.

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Yeah, almost certainly. Hardhome is going to be a complete disaster, Jon'll come back with a handful of survivors, then stabby time. Maybe they'll throw in the whole pink letter dealio too, for maximum trolling. "Oh boy, can't wait for Jon to kick Ramsay's ass! Oh..."

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"Stabby Time"

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I guess they wont have the book theory of Mel using magic to morph Jon into Ghost? I see a fade to black cliffhanger ending to episode 10, which would be a first I think for GoT. Unless Bran sends some penis fireballs to defend Jon...

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Nymeria Warrior Queen wrote:
Cary Storm wrote:

Here's a thought. Did anyone think that the fact that the wedding was beneath the weirwood tree means that Bran saw the whole thing?


 Oh, I was definitely thinking that.  I even wondered if we won't have a brief flash next season of Bran seeing it through the weirwood, or something.


 YES!!! I thought the same, sweet! On both counts. 



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Nymeria Warrior Queen wrote:

I don't understand how people can say that scene was gratuitous or simply for shock value when it was based directly on what happens to Jayne Poole in the books, except to a lesser extreme. Is it because it was to Sansa?


 I don't see how anyone can think that Sansa's arc this season has been organic or natural, it feels forced to me. That scene was gratuitous in the fact D & D forced the audience to watch another Stark go through an unnecessary traumatic scenario. There was no need to rape her at all, Reek could of intervened or Stannis could of arrived with his army. Who the hell cares about Jeyne Poole? Just because she was married off to Ramsay doesn't mean a bigger more important character in the series needed to replace her. I can just picture D & D when they outlined this season " Oh lets use Sansa in the Jeyne Poole role, that will shock and unsettle our viewers". The moment they decided to give Robb Stark a pregnant wife and butcher her at the Red Wedding was the moment D & D started to believe in their own clippings.



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Macha said it the best, Sansa has been a bore in the books. Not so much in the show. I still get hard thinking about that last scene.

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"Who the hell cares about Jeyne Poole?"

yeah, who cares if she was raped by Ramsay and his entire kennel? Fuck her.

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Just because her arc in AFFC isn't the most exciting doesn't give D & D free reign to exploit the character. Hell the whole "Dark Sansa" route didn't even seem to go anywhere, she's just back to being the abused pawn for other characters, except now she's damaged goods.



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It's definitely more interesting in the show than that snoozefest in AFFC though.

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Dolan wrote:

It's definitely more interesting in the show than that snoozefest in AFFC though.


 I disagree, they're pretty much retreading ground with Sansa now, it's S2 all over again except this time her betrothed actually wants to fornicate with her.



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You're right. Sansa should have told Ramsay she had her period to get out of having to unwillingly consumate the marriage. Or maybe defy Ramsay to his face, slap him even, yeah that would have worked.

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Rygar wrote:

You're right. Sansa should have told Ramsay she had her period to get out of having to unwillingly consumate the marriage. Or maybe defy Ramsay to his face, slap him even, yeah that would have worked.


 highfive



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Any 'day dreaming princess' naivety that Sansa has once had is thrown the fuck out the window now. Having this happen to Sansa is more GRRM than you realize.

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and that is the point.

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Nah it's more D & D's style, they've already proven that with the Sept scene. They're obsessed with rape and vilifying homosexuals. They seem to have no subtly or ingenuity.



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Yes, they're perverts fapping to that last Sansa scene.

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Me, obsessed with rape? grrm



-- Edited by Rygar on Tuesday 19th of May 2015 12:45:20 PM

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Adaptation choices aside, we are pretty much past that one. Basi our sole unsullied member and a woman offered an unique perspective, she did not find it exploitative at all. She actually wishes more chaos to come Sansa's way...and so do I.

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Knight of EscarGoT
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D&D are hardly obsessed with rape. They have also cut quite a bit of the rape and sexual violence from the books. GRRM has an unfortunate tendency to create characters whose sole purpose is to be raped and make the protagonist feel bad (Eroeh, Lollys, Kyra)

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I have been thinking about Meereen, will they do a "scorched earth" and kill GW and Missandei so they can move away from that locale? If so, what of Tyrion?

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