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Topic: HBO's Westworld

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Muffin Bran
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RE: HBO's Westworld
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TormundsWoman wrote:
Just realized that EVERYTHING Bernard told Dolores about the maze is something that Ford put in motion.

Holy guacamole! You're right! I was so shocked by Bernard's aggression at the end of the episode (I didn't think he had it in him), I haven't put any thought into his actions from previous episodes. 



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Dolan
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I imagine what is the hiring process in the world would look like for a host to be able to be interviewed then hired without the employees ever knowing about it, it's fucking ridiculous just thinking about it, he comes from outside of the park? That means hosts can already escape it? he has fake/family/friends/former employees/fake education? Too convoluted.
Rygar and Andi are right, this show sucks.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Dolan wrote:

I imagine what is the hiring process in the world would look like for a host to be able to be interviewed then hired without the employees ever knowing about it, it's fucking ridiculous just thinking about it, he comes from outside of the park? That means hosts can already escape it? he has fake/family/friends/former employees/fake education? Too convoluted.
Rygar and Andi are right, this show sucks.

 Think about it though, I dunno what kinda jobs you have had, but do you ever question how the senior higher ups got there? Bernard is one of the top 3 level guys at WW and has been there quite long, none of the underlings would have reason to question that.



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TormundsWoman
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That. So much. I worked in corporate America. In HR no less. HR is directly answering to the head honcho of the company (in this case Ford). No one in Loans ever asked where the VP of Loan Department that just got hired worked before. Probably googled just out of curiosity, but a full investigation, complaints?! Pfft. What would they even say?! Ford probably hired him directly. Corporate America also works like that sometimes. President hires head of departments himself.

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TormundsWoman
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Muffin Bran wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:
Just realized that EVERYTHING Bernard told Dolores about the maze is something that Ford put in motion.

Holy guacamole! You're right! I was so shocked by Bernard's aggression at the end of the episode (I didn't think he had it in him), I haven't put any thought into his actions from previous episodes. 

 It is mind blowing considering our perception of Bernard, to see him kill Theresa. So meticulous too. He took off his necktie and coat gave me the chills. Also interesting that he was built to break the first directive of not hurting humans. I watched the ep again and Ford never issued a direct order to kill Theresa. Is Bernard linked up to Ford's mind?! Is he built to sense Ford's desires? What?! Was Ford talking in code?! Also about Bernie: no loop that we know of, and he is living in the real world and in human society. It will be interesting to see if his memory is wiped out to forget that he's a host and that he killed Theresa. And what explanation would Ford provide if Bernard remains as he is.

There's something fishy about that Theresa/Board Employee/ Ford discussions too. The Board and Ford have a "little research project" that's more important than the hosts, and the park itself. I thought they referred to the code only, but I think it's deeper than that. We'all see.

And now I have made ANOTHER long ass post.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 14th of November 2016 10:30:40 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Bring it Torwy!

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andrea
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Imma play a little bit with the crazyness here. Apparently Hannibal has little patience for antagonists, used as he is to be surrounded by mindless hosts. So what you´d do eh? Fancy that, you get to kill the annoying enemies and you don´t even need to get your hands dirty. Hannibal said to Theresa: "And this time they sent you" so, they sent others before and one of the others was probably human Bernard. And Hannibal Ford did exactly the same. Got rid of Bernard and later made a fake one. I think Theresa understood that was happening to her too.  And now, that host "in the making" in that scene is of course, fake Theresa who will be like on vacation for a couple of days (same time this slow machine needs to make a host, as Bernard said). Pretty useful I´d say but narratively, not much fun  except, it will meet its end shortly. I mean, Hannibal is just a bratt. After all he also said: "I built everything here", so who knows, maybe he is Daedalus after all or Minos or the Minotauro cowlick. Meh. 

This is all I can say.

 



-- Edited by andrea on Monday 14th of November 2016 03:48:40 PM

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andrea
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TormundsWoman wrote:

Oh shit freakout I'm totally blaming Andrea with her calling Bernard as Ford's Pinocchio!  

  no you can´t missy! Gimme my prize.

 



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DonalNoyesArm
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Aslo I just realized:

Bernard Lowe is an anagram for...you guessed it....Arnold Weber.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Rygar
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Maybe I will binge watch when its over and not renewed.

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Morgoth
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Rygar wrote:

Maybe I will binge watch when its over and not renewed.

 

About that...

 

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13199084/hbo-westworld-renewed-second-season

 

Honestly, how long before this thing peters out? They allegedly planned 5 seasons, but the first one is already limping to the finish line. I can see the logic behind the renewal though, HBO must be desperate, having no successor to GoT yet.



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TormundsWoman
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andrea wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

Oh shit freakout I'm totally blaming Andrea with her calling Bernard as Ford's Pinocchio!  

  no you can´t missy! Gimme my prize.

 Here it is: piggy And if your theory of Ford the serial killer that makes his super advance hosts from/or in the image of Board Messengers I'm upgrading that to Miss Piggy!

I really think though that you are on to something about that Maze and Ariadne. If you think about it Ford and Arnold are her "fathers" and somehow she's the only one we know about that the maze was meant for (the little girl told MIB that the maze is not meant for HIM, so we can only assume it was meant for HER). If I remember right, Ariadne's father also meant her to be the one who "gets" or understands the maze. Left it in her hands, no? I wonder if you said that before now that I've typed all that I have to go back and look at what you said in a previous comment because I forgot though I did read it at the time.

EDIT: Close enough. But completely forgot about the Carmen theme. I wonder now what THAT was all about That's a love theme song. Hector and Maeve is definitely not that



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 14th of November 2016 07:32:13 PM

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Muffin Bran
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Sorry if this has already been answered, but are y'all rewatching each episode?

I watch each episode once and catch repeats in the background while I do other stuff. Other than that, I'm listening to a podcast about it, but that's it.



-- Edited by Muffin Bran on Monday 14th of November 2016 09:54:19 PM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Muffin Bran wrote:

Sorry if this has already been answered, but are y'all rewatching each episode?

I watch each episode once and catch repeats in the background while I do other stuff. Other than that, I'm listen to a podcast about it, but that's about it.

 GOT is the only show I listen to a podcast about, but I do rewatch each episode.



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TormundsWoman
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I'm a total nerd. I usually catch the late night rerun on the same night, around 1:30 - 2 am, I think. I just get up in the middle of the night. It's not unusual for me. Never listened to any podcast for a show except for Game of Owns, but I no longer do that either since I don't read Wotw anymore.

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Dolan
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:
Dolan wrote:

I imagine what is the hiring process in the world would look like for a host to be able to be interviewed then hired without the employees ever knowing about it, it's fucking ridiculous just thinking about it, he comes from outside of the park? That means hosts can already escape it? he has fake/family/friends/former employees/fake education? Too convoluted.
Rygar and Andi are right, this show sucks.

 Think about it though, I dunno what kinda jobs you have had, but do you ever question how the senior higher ups got there? Bernard is one of the top 3 level guys at WW and has been there quite long, none of the underlings would have reason to question that.

Yeah but how did he got "in" to the park if he alreayd came form inside it? Anyway Andi already answered in that he's probably a fake version of a human that Ford killed, Andi pretty much solved this show's puzzle in the first few weeks, her latest comment makes the best definition of this show i've seen: meh.

 

Also, the corporation's real objective is replacing everybody with robots but that still doesn't explain how some big corp can be hostage of a programmer and how even in a future where they solved all of the world's problems they still can't make a fucking BACKUP??? Gimme a fucking break.

This show's plots have more holes than swiss cheese, i'm done with it.



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Rygar
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Love. This. Show.



-- Edited by Rygar on Wednesday 16th of November 2016 07:44:23 AM

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Muffin Bran
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I started with a podcast that covered the show in detail, but I lost interest in it. The only podcast I listen to about it now is The Watch and their weekly 5-10min recaps.



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DonalNoyesArm
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One interesting aspect, is that Bernard was one of the main protagonists since episode one. His interactions with everyone might have to be reevaluated.

Most interestingly, his conversation in Fords office. The picture that was shown was missing someone. Was Bernard shielding himself so "it did not look anything to him". Who was missing in the pic then?

His secret conversation with Dolores, was that Bernard the host or a person Bernard has replaced. Might need to rewatch em all!

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TormundsWoman
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I didn't realize that someone was missing in that pic. I guess someone had to notice all those Easter Eggs I couldn't find

on the other hand I DID notice at the time something but never gave it a second thought until I read a theory last week: that Arnold is Bernard. Or better said that Arnold's mind has somehow transferred in Bernard's body. And the clue (the one I did notice it at the time and thought it odd because I didn't know how to interpret it) is in the first ep when Papa Abernathy tells Ford he wants to meet his maker. Ford turns around and says looking at Bernard something in the lines of: "well, you're in luck". And later on Bernard takes him to decommission room to terminate him himself. And to top it off whispers something in Abernathy 's ear. Initially I thought it was a mistake, since it wasn't Bernard that built him (his maker) but if Arnold is Bernard then all of that makes sense.

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TormundsWoman
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Rygar wrote:

Love. This. Show.



-- Edited by Rygar on Wednesday 16th of November 2016 07:44:23 AM

 I see what you did Ry now you're just teasing us!



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DonalNoyesArm
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Bernard is quite a special host, he does not get tracked in the system and he seems to be left on his own devices most of the time. In next weeks trailer, he questions Ford why he was made to murder. I would assume Ford built a fail-safe in Bernard in case he gets angry at him.

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Muffin Bran
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Aslo I just realized:

Bernard Lowe is an anagram for...you guessed it....Arnold Weber.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 If that's where the show goes, I'm calling him Bernar-nold



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Morgoth
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TormundsWoman wrote:

since I don't read Wotw anymore.

 

Why? Because of the trolls or you just don't want to get spoiled?



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Cary Storm
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Aslo I just realized:

Bernard Lowe is an anagram for...you guessed it....Arnold Weber.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 That's too much of a coincidence for it not to be intentional... 



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Cary Storm
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Also, the show's theme song is growing on me. It seemed kind of dull at first, but it's actually pretty good.

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TormundsWoman
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Morgoth wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

since I don't read Wotw anymore.

 Why? Because of the trolls or you just don't want to get spoiled?

 Initially because the site was having all kinds of issues with loading and refreshing back in Feb or March I think. And when that was fixed I just realized I don't recognize many posters anymore. Many old timers just up and left, some probably posted under different nicks. I suppose it happened gradually but I didn't notice until then. And some of the new peeps turned out to be trolls that is also true. I don't know. It just doesn't hold the same appeal for me. Sorry for the off topic.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Sunday 20th of November 2016 01:15:28 PM

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TormundsWoman
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yippie my girl Maeve was the ORIGINAL who broke the mold! I feel terrible and MIB IS William. His wife was right. He was sick. I literally have to stop myself and take a deep breath. Too excited about this one.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Maeve is truly the best character on the show.

This one had a lotta stuff going on, gotta rewatch.

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Another great episode. But I am annoyed at the entire Two Techs - One Host thing that nobody else seems to be aware of. This has got to be the most incompetently run organization in Sci-Fi history

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Honest questions:

1-Has Dolores being out of her loop been addressed already? I really can't remember, and I'm not sure if they just let her run with it (but why?), or the writing is just ignoring that detail.

ETA: What do they say to guests who want to be with Dolores? "Sorry folks, a guest has been keeping her for himself all these days. Nothing we can do! Visit the brothel or sth!".
2-Where are all the guests? In the first couple of episodes we kind of saw other people around the park (like that guy who killed Hector before he could deliver his speech), but so far it's like the MIB and William are the only ones playing. Sure, we still see people going to the brothel, but I really find it hard to believe that's the first and only stop for most visitors. It just seems awfully convenient, y'know. Like most things in this show.
3-Was that really the best Ford could come up with to explain Theresa's death? I'm not even a professional writer and it seemed lazy to me.
4-Not really a question, but the Maeve subplot insults my intelligence and I won't bother to comment about it.



-- Edited by Morgoth on Monday 21st of November 2016 06:54:52 AM

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Dolores' off the loop behavior was a concern in both time periods if you believe there are two. Or twice by different people, if you believe there's only one time period (now). In the first case we hear Stubbs being approached by an employee letting him know about the Farmer's daughter and he specifically says tag her and take her down to behavior. Then we see both Bernard and Ford having different sessions with her. Giving her an off loop "game" to complete (which was the Maze). Then if you believe there is a second time period you see a host trying to take her away but William confirms she's with him, a guest, in which case her being "off her loop" is justified and they leave her to continue her story with William.

I don't understand the second complaint to be honest. The setting and backdrop was finished by the 3rd ep. How many guests do you want the story to follow? Most guests are picking one storyline and stick with it for a few days supposedly. We are following only three of them (William, Logan, MIB) all of whom picked storylines at the edges of the map that are populated with hosts. Not all humans look for the "extreme" adventures. Even so when some do cross paths with our three humans we see them and gain info (see the two who met with MIB and one tried to thank him). And in Sweetwater is full of hosts and guests. You only see the Mariposa saloon ones because Maeve (who's the host who's storyline the show is following) has a very limited loop location. I don't understand what you'd like to see. More extras as humans or you'd want more human characters always being introduced? It would be an unnecessary bloat if it is the last. It just would not add anything to the story as far as I'm concerned.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 21st of November 2016 11:23:46 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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The park would seem absolutely enormous, heck William and Dolores were on a train ride for more than a day, so I think the place would be teeming with guests, they are simply scattered all over the place.

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TormundsWoman
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Cary Storm wrote:

But I am annoyed at the entire Two Techs - One Host thing that nobody else seems to be aware of. This has got to be the most incompetently run organization in Sci-Fi history

  I think that duo is like moron and moron-er. I still don't understand why Felix (the "simpatico " guy) gave her admin privileges. Who knows what else she/he modified. He must really have a hard on for this host. There is no way you know this hosts' traumatic storyline and think she will be all fine and dandy with everything. the other one had a plan to shut her down by literally bash her main unit in (her head) but Felix well... who knows. Maybe he's a host too.



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Here's why I don't think William is the MiB: The bare steeple that William took Delores to. We've already seen Ford point at it as part of his new storyline. I can't believe it would be the same way 30 years in the past when William is supposedly the young MiB, especially since it's evidently got a past of its own. Not the way you lay out parallel time periods in dramatic exposition.

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TormundsWoman wrote:


I don't understand the second complaint to be honest. The setting and backdrop was finished by the 3rd ep. How many guests do you want the story to follow? Most guests are picking one storyline and stick with it for a few days supposedly. We are following only three of them (William, Logan, MIB) all of whom picked storylines at the edges of the map that are populated with hosts. Not all humans look for the "extreme" adventures. Even so when some do cross paths with our three humans we see them and gain info (see the two who met with MIB and one tried to thank him). And in Sweetwater is full of hosts and guests. You only see the Mariposa saloon ones because Maeve (who's the host who's storyline the show is following) has a very limited loop location. I don't understand what you'd like to see. More extras as humans or you'd want more human characters always being introduced? It would be an unnecessary bloat if it is the last. It just would not add anything to the story as far as I'm concerned.



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 21st of November 2016 11:23:46 AM

 Allow me to elaborate a bit.

I've never been too big of an online player, but back when I was a teenager (not so long ago, heh), I used to play Ragnarok Online, World of Warcraft and such. And those games were always crowded. You'd have to look for a relatively new-ish or not so popular server if you wanted to roam the place freely, so to speak. Else, it always looked like this:

derp-1.png

Now, I do realize that for terms of practicality/storytelling, you obviously can't have the whole set filled with extras, or follow dozens of them. I know, that's obvious.

But the place feels deserted. The characters never stumble upon other humans, it's always hosts/NPCs. Therefore, despite the world is allegedly massive, it feels really small-ish.

GoT kinda solves this problem by adding scenes such as the "Demon Monkey" one, in which the characters, despite having one-on-one conversations most of the time, seem to live in a real world. It feels believable. It's not the same here, in which they seem to have the whole world for themselves, despite it's supposed to be a very popular theme park.

Case in point: After a long train ride, a horse chase, blah blah...they are found by the confederados. And who's leading them? Logan, because of course. 

Am I being too nitpicky? I don't think so, but I also know not everyone is bothered by the same things. It's just me.

 



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TormundsWoman
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Interesting you should say that Cary. See, that spire had a very interesting backdrop in episode 8 kind of got my attention too. So because it is Monday and I hate Mondays and because you noticed it too, I took the time to snapshot the episode 2 church steeple & spire and background vs episode 8 church steeple & spire and backdrop. Here is a bit of imagery. I'm not entirely sure it is the same. It could be the angle sure, but I watched the whole scene. There's even a roof coming out of the ground where Dolores sits with William (last pic on the left middle to bottom screenshot), which would make sense if only 5 years passed since Dolores went ballistic and shot everyone and somehow Arnold died too. But that roof is gone in ep 2 which if there ARE two timelines would probably covered by the sand.

 

Ep 2:

hmHLVT3.jpg

Mvp5ox6.jpg

MOfb7Ob.jpg


Ep 8:

dMFyL9f.jpg

71ZxjiQ.jpg

Ha0dPym.jpg

I'm not saying these are 100% different, maybe the angles the spires are shot make that difference I'm seeing, but I can't say 100% they are the same either. Theory for me still stands yippie

#NerdOut

 



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 21st of November 2016 08:13:02 PM

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Morgoth
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Yeah, if William is the MiB in the future, then how is that Dolores "gets" flashbacks of Ed Harris, if that's supposed to happen in 30 years?

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Cary Storm
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Morgoth wrote:

Yeah, if William is the MiB in the future, then how is that Dolores "gets" flashbacks of Ed Harris, if that's supposed to happen in 30 years?

 yes there is that, too.



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TormundsWoman
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If you believe there are two timelines, she doesn't. Don pointing it out just clears the fact that she killed in both timelines and he's could be right. The second time when she killed Rebus in the "now", she had a flashback of Ed Harris from the day or the loop before and pulled the trigger form the gun she got from Rebus in the barn. She just lied about it when she talked to Bernard and didn't mention the killing, just running away.

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I just caught the ending of the ep on HBO and I am floored at Thandie Newton's interpretation of Maeve. She kills it. Her pain when she's brought in to Ford is heartbreaking. And the look at Bernard before she stabs herself even though Ford just erased her memory of her pain my God. alive doesn't even describe it.

Two things about the ep that still push the idea of hosts uprising. Until now we only had Dolores and Maeve remembering past builds and storylines. But now we just got two more: Bernard remembered killing Elsie. Which means Ford used him before to kill people. ANDREA IS GUILTY! and then Teddy remembered Dolores and MiB abusing her. The end is coming.

Other notes on last night's ep if anyone is interested: pappy Abernathy is set to move some 35 yrs of data that's not the host's code. What the hell is it then?! I hope this is big and they deliver on this hype. Because if it turns out it is the code to some machine to make ice I'll be pissed as hell. And the second is Papa Abernathy leaves the park... what about that charge of dynamite at the base of the spine?!?! the C4 vertebrae? did they not know about that?

And finally MIB is god, owns the park universe and knows how to change the code. I'm starting to suspect he's behind Maeve getting new awesome code, nudging her somehow. Then she took it a step further.

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Morgoth
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The Hollywood Reporter spoke with “Trace Decay” director Stephen Williams, who waived the opportunity to confirm Elsie’s death outright, but cryptically suggested we weren’t even looking at Elsie:

Some are taking that as confirmation that Bernard killed Elsie (Shannon Woodward). Is that the right read?

Very nicely done. (Laughs.) Let me refer you to your earlier question about Lost. There’s a form of storytelling that I happen to be somewhat partial to, which embraces the thrill of ambiguity. So I will only say this: I will answer your question with this question. Are we in fact sure that that was Elsie?

screencrush.com/westworld-elsie-alive-dead-bernard/

Didn't take long for this show to go into Lost-ian levels of messing with your audience.

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FAK U DOLAN!!!
DonalNoyesArm
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While I do enjoy the show, the last two eps really need to tie together the storylines in an organic way. Lost was a great show but frustrated many with their mind games in the final seasons, and I feel this show is doing the same thing, but in their FIRST season.

But I am invested and we shall see.


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TormundsWoman
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Ok, someone needs to stop with this misleading and misdirection eyeroll I mean I will watch again, but if that's not Elsie it's a huge letdown. I mean the scene is supposed to MEAN something. Would I care if Bernard suddenly remembered killing a host or some unknown dudette?! My goodness. Now I'm almost pissed at the way the dude is playing "cute". Give me a break. I'm so done with this show!!! ( ok I'm not, but I just wanted to say that myself, since I never do and I've seen others say it at some point for some series or another)

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DonalNoyesArm
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Seems Maeve gave herself admin privileges, and could control other hosts.
Isn't that a bit cruel of her? She became self-aware, yet she has no issues making other hosts kill themselves or others, what about their pain? Hmmm.

SO!, with that newfound skill, could she hack into Bernard? Maybe he does not register as a host to her, so she might not know to help him. I do hope Bernard gets back to Robert, it was just cruel what he made him do.

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andrea
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TormundsWoman wrote:

But now we just got two more: Bernard remembered killing Elsie. Which means Ford used him before to kill people. ANDREA IS GUILTY!  

 



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andrea
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TormundsWoman wrote:

Ok, someone needs to stop with this misleading and misdirection eyeroll 

 Same they did in True Detective, is not only a let down, is a waste of time too bear

I`m really bored of this show but I will finish watching.



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Rygar
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Two eps left before I am caught up. Show still sucks.

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Rygar
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New whore is Lila from Deadwood.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Rygar wrote:

New whore is Lila from Deadwood.

 Or is she Beth from True Detective season 1? Yeah! 



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