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Topic: HBO's Westworld

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Morgoth
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HBO's Westworld
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To say I was disappointed by the big reveals would be an understatement, but I really wasn't expecting any different at this point.
Hey, at least this episode had a bit more action and stuff going on.
The Delos Squad has nothing to envy to the Stormtroopers. Bunch of incompetent doofuses can't kill a couple of runaway robots.

Also, so *there are* cameras everywhere. And the fact nobody ever noticed Maeve's hijinks was only because Westworld is run by idiots. All that personnel looking at screens all day and nobody ever saw anything? All right then. I really can't take any of this seriously, but it is what it is.

"Samuraiworld" or whatever it is looks like fun.

Fuck the maze mystery.

And I guess Ed Harris and at least someone else will make it to season 2? Not sure if I care enough to keep watching. It's not even hatewatching, because I don't hate this show. I'm just really disinterested.
But honestly, more power to those who like it.


So why this stuff gets a 90 minutes finale and GoT doesn't? Eh.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Morgoth wrote:

So why this stuff gets a 90 minutes finale and GoT doesn't? Eh.

 Now THAT is the fucking maze! 



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Wy-lores. teehee

Westworld had a strong beginning, I felt lost in the middle (probably what I get for reading speculations), but the ending rounded out.

The cliffhanger felt, to me, like a good old-fashioned cliffhanger: end a chapter, answer questions, but leave an opening for more story later. Maybe in two years (wow, I can't even guess this week, hard to imagine two years from now) I'll know better than to read theories and the answers will be more a surprise. 



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Muffin Bran
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Morgoth wrote:


So why this stuff gets a 90 minutes finale and GoT doesn't? Eh.

 Fewer episodes with longer run times would be perfect for season 7. Please make it happen, HBO. pray



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Cary Storm
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Well... that escalated quickly 



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Cary Storm
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Also, I was pretty sure Ford was going to bite the bullet on the last episode. Hopkins and Harris both are too expensive to keep for more than one season. Loved how we don't know whether William survived at the end. I mean, it certainly doesn't look good. And was that Clementine One doing the shooting? 



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DonalNoyesArm
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Muffin Bran wrote:

 I'll know better than to read theories and the answers will be more a surprise. 

 Agree 100% reading speculation kinda took the wind out of many elements, eventhough some stuff I guessed on my own.



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Morgoth
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Really, it bugs the hell out of me how they can notice a host going stray or going out of his/her loop, but shit goes down in their own installations (two technicians get mutilated/murdered, glass breaking, etc.) and nobody bats an eye til there's a change in temperature (!!). I think it annoys me because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's just the show ignoring its own setting/rules so it can have its cake.
At least have a scene in which Maeve deactivates the camera, or sticks a picture on its lens.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Morgoth wrote:

Really, it bugs the hell out of me how they can notice a host going stray or going out of his/her loop, but shit goes down in their own installations (two technicians get mutilated/murdered, glass breaking, etc.) and nobody bats an eye til there's a change in temperature (!!). I think it annoys me because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's just the show ignoring its own setting/rules so it can have its cake.
At least have a scene in which Maeve deactivates the camera, or sticks a picture on its lens.

 I do agree the show ignores many of its rules as plot conveniences. Remember in episode one when Ford is having a drink with "Old Bill" the second host they ever built? He mentioned that old hosts were glitchy, broke down all of the time and were unconvincing.

Yet when the show takes place 30 years ago in young Williams story, the hosts seemed perfect.

I am sure many people will have a field day spotting the plot holes and inconsistensies in this one.



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Rygar
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I saw that Watchers on the Wall have a new fan site dedicated to Westworld.

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TormundsWoman
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I think Maeve broke the circle. Her script said "Escape" and Bernard last words about that were "when you reach the mainland"... she however decided to stay for the little girl she thinks as her daughter. Free willl, unscripted choice. A lot like Dolores.

I do wonder what will the self aware hosts do with the majority who never did reach it or are incapable of doing so. According to Bernard there are only a handful like Maeve, Dolores, Bernard and Teddy that display potential for memories of different builds and with potential of breaking the mold. Will Bernard write code so they can all reach that situation? What if they never do?! The reveries and bicameral code was written into all of them however not all can handle it. Some like Rebus went nuts. Others never become self aware. Very interesting because they seem to be just as different as human beings are one from each other.

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Cary Storm
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TormundsWoman wrote:

Some like Rebus went nuts. 

 And yet didn't we see him standing there during Ford's speech? 



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Zombies rule. Cowboys drool.

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TormundsWoman
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Cary Storm wrote:
TormundsWoman wrote:

Some like Rebus went nuts. 

 And yet didn't we see him standing there during Ford's speech? 

 Ford took him out of the freezer for the board party! Apparently you are not the only one with a weakness for Rebus But he also let the rest of the hosts out; they just were not worthy enough to attend the party from the beginning . Unless that one was Maeve's or Bernard's doing... hmmm, i think it's Ford though. His new narrative is tough on humans.

I feel like singing: "who let the hosts out?! Who?! Who?! Who????" lol



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TormundsWoman
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Somebody is jelly because Westworld thread is getting ALLL the action! dance

Jelly, jelly,
Bet your pants are smelly!

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Rygar
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Wow.

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Morgoth
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I think this Slate review summarized Westworld pretty well:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/12/05/the_westworld_finale_highlighted_the_problem_with_this_show_s_twist_addiction.html

 

When Westworld began, it too seemed poised to explore rich thematic material about consciousness, trauma and humanity, and instead spent eight episodes communing with a Reddit board. A little after its start, the show became slavishly devoted to twists, all of which were successfully predicted, up to and including Dolores’ identity as the mass-murdering big-bad Wyatt (shown in the finale not to be an evil being, but a human-directed host on a murder-suicide mission of compassion) and William being one and the same as the Man in Black, a theory so well-circulated it became unavoidable even to people doing minimal spoiler avoidance.

In a very generous reading, the finale was trying to operate as a kind of correction to all the twist-hunting it encouraged, insofar as the twists didn’t really matter. The reveal that William was the Man in Black thankfully did not overshadow the revelation that Dolores has also been repeating herself in time, on a perpetual loop towards consciousness, though the episodes-long build-up to that reveal did make Dolores’ story opaque and needlessly confusing, up to and through much of the finale. Moreover, the Man in Black’s obsession with “the maze” was revealed to be silly and futile, a jab at clue-hunting viewers that would have been more powerful if Westworld Kremlinologists had whole-heartedly taken the maze-bait—instead, the maze was, relatively speaking, ignored.

But Westworld is the show that stuffs candy down your throat and then lectures you about how sugar is bad for your attention span. A viewer could have successfully “predicted” the finale without paying attention to any of the theories or spoilers—but then, they could have “predicted” the finale without watching about seven episodes of the show. It’s one thing to say the maze doesn’t matter in any literal way; it’s another to say that and also have spent six episodes of focusing on the maze. It’s one thing to make William’s revelation secondary to Dolores’ character development at the end of the season; it’s another to do that after subsuming Dolores’ to William for all of the season that came before. It’s one thing to construct a twist whose “real” twist is that it is literally a child's toy, a plaything, junk, and another to have given your show a tortured, confusing structure that prioritized twists over character development (Robert’s motivations are the real maze) and relationships.

(...)

It’s the host-version of a TV show, expertly designed to play into an increasingly predictable and lucrative TV-watching mode—TV show as treasure hunt—but ultimately hollow.



-- Edited by Morgoth on Monday 5th of December 2016 07:58:28 PM

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TormundsWoman
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I think I must have seen a different show than the Slate reviewer.

"it’s another to do that after subsuming Dolores’ to William for all of the season that came before."

The show never did that. It was all about Dolores and her journey as far as I was concerned. William transformation took place after Dolores left. I think the reviewer is confusing the show with the obsession of the audience to figure out the MIB=William theory. Because it was us who put the emphasis on that not the show. They gave a few clues and no more.

Anyway, I just came to put this up: www.discoverwestworld.com/
Westworld site went kaput . I clicked on all the choices given to ask Aedan and got one thing that was amazing! MIB is coming back yippie

When I cliked on "find MIB", Aedan said "he may be the titan of industry outside but but his playing field in here has been leveled. Considerably. He sought to traverse the maze and time will tell if he’s truly prepared to meet what’s at the center."

I guess we got Ed Harris for the next ep and he is not dead yet.



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Rygar
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No, Morgoths post got it right. But I wont shit on it anymore.

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TormundsWoman
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Lol not about Dolores storyline absorption he didn't. Sorry, it's Dolores who drove that arc. William was just along for the ride while she was looking for Arnold. It's also she who has the gradual change for half the season. William is just snapping into someone different when she's gone. Definitely watching different shows. booty



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 5th of December 2016 08:39:33 PM

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Rygar
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I meant that the show sucks. Lol



-- Edited by Rygar on Monday 5th of December 2016 08:33:45 PM

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TormundsWoman
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That's it! Next person says this show sucks, I'm breaking Don's hammock!!! teehee

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Morgoth
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TormundsWoman wrote:

Lol not about Dolores storyline absorption he didn't. Sorry, it's Dolores who drove that arc. William was just along for the ride while she was looking for Arnold. It's also she who has the gradual change for half the season. William is just snapping into someone different when she's gone. Definitely watching different shows. booty



-- Edited by TormundsWoman on Monday 5th of December 2016 08:39:33 PM

 

Welp, I got the same impression as Ry and the Slate reviewer.

 

Morgoth wrote:


As for the hosts, I really don't care about Dolores. Or the prostitute (Maeve?). Because, again...they aren't interesting. The first one is a passive character who just goes through the motions, following other people (William and Logan) (...)


 I really didn't feel like it was 'her' arc til later in the season when she got separated from William.



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andrea
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Westworld characters imagined as horses. Don´t ask, go check Oatmeal´s website, is fun.

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/westworld_horses

 



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Macha
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Have to catch up with this thread.

It took me about 5 episodes to really get into it, couldn't stand Dolores and William at first, but I ended up re-watching every episode at least a couple of times, whenever it was on HBO, and by the end I completely fell in love with it.

Have to admit, Reddit helped because at first I couldn't figure out anything by myself and was confused most of the time, but I kinda liked it so I never thought too much about anything before the Bernie reveal. So even though I was expecting some theories to come true, I still loved every bit of the finale. Maeve, Dolores, William, it was all cool. I thought the acting and the music especially was great throughout the season.

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Macha! glad you liked it! huggs

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Black as Snow
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I'm so happy to see you post, Macha! huggs

Maeve and her timeline still bug me. Maeve is an older host, hence her ability to achieve consciousness. According to the techs, the "cornerstone" of her personality is the death of her daughter. But her daughter was killed by old William, which makes it the recent(?) past. So how is the death of her daughter truly a cornerstone of her personality, as we have been led to believe? When did this actually happen? I haven't rewatched, so maybe my timeline is off. Or maybe I'm making things up so that I can say hi to Macha.

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Rygar
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Or maybe this show just sucks and we should watch Deadwood.

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Macha
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BASI huggs 

From what I could tell, a traumatic event only speeds up the process, but the process could have started way before. I didn't see it as a catalyst per se, but maybe more as an accelerator of something that was latent.

We never got a more detailed look into her loop on the farm, but a woman living alone with her daughter...I bet it wasn't pretty. Maybe MIB's visit was just the final drop - although in her case, the way I saw it, Ford was the one to really help her achieve consciousness fully, perhaps after he decided his move on the board. 



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Macha
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But I have a thing or two that puzzle me. Dunno if it's already been talked about here, but what was up with the maze on that guy's scalp? What the fuck? If the maze was not meant for the Man in Black or for any visitor, was that supposed to be meant for the hosts also?
I get it's supposed to be this mysterious thing with clues scattered all over the place but HELLO.


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I need to rewatch the full series, that map on the scalp was odd, also the show never explained which host Ford was making in his secret lab where Theresa was killed.

Maybe he made a copy of himself and that copy was shot by Dolores in the final scene, and the real Ford is still around, making sure his new narrative runs as planned.



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Cary Storm
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DonalNoyesArm wrote:

Maybe he made a copy of himself and that copy was shot by Dolores in the final scene, and the real Ford is still around, making sure his new narrative runs as planned.

 This is absolutely what he was making.



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Black as Snow
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I love that theory, Donnie!

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Macha
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I think I remember an interview with Nolan alluding to the fact that the host in the secret lab wasn't Ford, or anyone of real importance, but I'd have to look for it...

To me, the entire season and that final, stunning scene between Ford and Bernard would turn to shit if the Ford v.2 theory is correct. I hate it.

-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 5th of January 2017 03:47:11 AM

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DonalNoyesArm
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Macha wrote:

I think I remember an interview with Nolan alluding to the fact that the host in the secret lab wasn't Ford, or anyone of real importance, but I'd have to look for it...

To me, the entire season and that final, stunning scene between Ford and Bernard would turn to shit if the Ford v.2 theory is correct. I hate it.

-- Edited by Macha on Thursday 5th of January 2017 03:47:11 AM

 I am always reminded of "Chekhov's gun"  that secret lab scene would have worked just as well without a host being made in the background, so why show it at all?

It is certainly very likely that the real Ford is dead, but he left a host doppelganger behind similar that Bernard is Arnold's replacement.

We shall see....IN TWO YEARS.



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Macha
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I took it as more of a visual detail to draw the eye and to emphasize the revelation of Bernard's own creation as a host.

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DonalNoyesArm
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Wow it's kinda perfect actually..haha



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Rygar
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Watched Ep1 again and then felt like pooping so I quit watching.

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Rygar
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Ok, gave this a go again. Watched it sober this time. Still hated most of the characters with the exception of Bernard/Arnold, Robert Ford, and MiB/William. Found it slightly more interesting this time around but I still think it pales in comparison to the "elite" HBO shows and it isnt as good as GoT. I'll watch season 2.

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TormundsWoman
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Nice Ry! You can bitch about the characters some more in Spring 2018. Rachel tweeted back last week to a fan and said series comes back in spring next yr. Jimmi Simpson and Anthony Hopkins are not returning. I feel figured as much but apparently both confirmed it.

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Rygar
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Hopkins wouldnt return. Robert Ford killed Jessie James with a shot to the back of the head. Fitting he goes out that way.

My question is, so are all those people now trapped inside the world with hosts that have been modified by Ford to have the ability to kill? That would be fucking great.

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I won't miss Simpson a bit. I do wish Hopkins was coming back, even if only for a couple of eps before they kill him again.

I don't know whether people are trapped in Westworld. It would be fitting if at least the corporate types were trapped. I would expect there to be some sort of fail safe that closes off access in case of robogeddon. And it would make sense for them to spend at least one more season stuck in Westworld before breaking out. Maybe they'll spend every season after that breaking into other "Worlds" in a quest to find an exit.

I just hope that season 2 won't be as repetitive as season 1. It's like some sort of hellish purgatory. I think that only a handful (or perhaps only 2) of the "old models" have actually developed free will. The rest will continue on with the identical routine every day until someone reprograms them, drags them off in a new direction or they also evolve. I suspect that season 2 will be the process of the awakened ones trying to get others to wake up while fighting off attempts from outside to kill/rescue those inside Westworld.

Wow. It's a good thing I'm not the one writing this series. I'm even more boring than I thought.


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Rygar wrote:

My question is, so are all those people now trapped inside the world with hosts that have been modified by Ford to have the ability to kill? That would be fucking great.

 Seems like it, and I hope we get that!



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TormundsWoman
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I’m fully expecting the hosts to go murder on the humans at the party! I don’t know if that’s where it picks up from to be honest but clearly something like that will happen. Ed Harris’s character was all happy at the end like a kid who got his wish. Wouldn’t wanna disappoint him! interesting about other worlds. I thought it was implied we’ll see the Samurai one for sure. Maybe it was just a tease.

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Black as Snow
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I can't wait to see what's next for MiB. He's going to try to act like he's in charge. I can imagine an awkward truce when outsiders try to rescue the corporate types and kill the renegades. It ought to be fun.

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That bloody grin!



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Rygar
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He is excited the game finally changed.

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Black as Snow
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Well then. The trailer answered most of my questions. It looks like it'll be fun.



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TormundsWoman
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Lol I’ve read this week something about how Rachel rides like she’s humpy and if that’s meaningful for how her character feels about hunting down real people or that it represents an awareness and development of sexual desire for the new AI! Actress said she had no idea. We have to wait until spring to have the answer to that

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Black as Snow
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I did notice that. Very provocative.

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