Raiding is kind of what Wildlings do, even if they have Jon to stop them now. And the Wildlings are Umber's hated enemies, I don't think he was going to believe that they've changed, or that they've settled down. It's hard to put away centuries of bad blood, I think it makes sense from the Smalljon's perspective to want to kill them all, even if he is a dick.
But if the Umbers hate wildlings so much, why not just kill Osha when they supposedly captured her and Rickon? Why even think Ramsay would want a wildling? Instead, they sent there the one person who's been protecting Rickon this entire time.
Osha is the tell in this scene. There is no reason for her to be there except as defender of Rickon and seducer of Ramsey. Also, on rewatch, Rickon and Osha's faces do not show the kind of emotion I would expect.
I will not stop defending the direwolves or being upset when they are murdered.
The fact that he wouldnt kneel. And he kept reminding Ramsay of the old laws, honor, etc, and how Roose broke those rules. By not kneeling the Umbers are not honor bound to fight for Ramsay. Shaggy could have been a sacrifice to make the ploy possible. Honestly, the ruse would not work with a direwolf hanging around.
which is a good reason to pretend he is dead while he is hidden back at Umberville or whatever it is called.
Also, given that so many are already dead, reducing options for a credible fake Rickon, and Winterfell has been in the hands of the Boltons for what seems like forever to me, getting Rickon inside Winterfell may be important -- "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Yes, they are risking their probable prince/lord but Osha has had time to train him further; he is wilder than wild; Rickon may have been the one to come up with the plan because HE wants inside!!
Does Ramsey really understand/know the crypts? The dialog mentioned that Jon could really defeat them because he knows Winterfell so well, but Rickon knows Winterfell just as well I'd wager.
What do the Umbers know of Sansa? There was no dialog about that at all.
Spoiler
But then, who is flayed?? Six crosses. We don't have that many known characters inside Winterfell at this point.
I agree, Osha is definitely a match for Ramsey in terms of devious bed tricks.
I am going to watch the scene again. If the Umbers were really to betray the Starks, wouldn't they want control of Winterfell themselves rather than leaving it to Ramsey?
-- Edited by BlueDragon on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 01:43:15 PM
Honestly to see the Tower of Joy scene (even though not in its entirety) was absolutely great, however my unsullied friends had no idea who was who and what was going on. I had to explain in detail to them who Lyanna was, re-reference who Rhaegar was and what happened at the trident, and then went on about Howland Reed for a while. Also referenced the Targaryen dragon sigil on their armor, as they didn't make a connection to the kingsguard at all (because let's face it, the old kingsguard armor was shit before the Lannisters blinged them out).
Seems like this is a common thing in WotW comments to have to connect the dots.
Hey Blue, Please do not include any future show spoilers in this thread. Not all of us have paid attention to the filming or the trailers. Had no idea about "6 crosses". Thanks.
-- Edited by Rygar on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 12:52:19 PM
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"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Hey Blue, Please do not include any future show spoilers in this thread. Not all of us have paid attention to the filming or the trailers. Thanks.
I don't understand. Everything I have posted is from the aired show. The rest is just speculation. I am not getting this from any source about the show.
please point out
Spoiler
The six crosses have been shown I thought in the bits at beginning of show.
I may be misremembering.
-- Edited by BlueDragon on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 12:55:34 PM
-- Edited by BlueDragon on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 01:43:58 PM
If Cat had loved Jon Snow then all the direwolves would still be alive
Clarify??? If Cat had loved Jon Snow or even tolerated him, the catastrophe would not have come to her family, or so she believed before she died.
Its an old meme from season 3 I think when Cat talked about Jon as a baby, and she hoped that if she had loved him the gods would've protected them all from harm. The meme came in when people began to attribute all bad things that happened in the show to Cat loving Jon snow.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Honestly to see the Tower of Joy scene (even though not in its entirety) was absolutely great, however my unsullied friends had no idea who was who and what was going on. I had to explain in detail to them who Lyanna was, re-reference who Rhaegar was and what happened at the trident, and then went on about Howland Reed for a while. Also referenced the Targaryen dragon sigil on their armor, as they didn't make a connection to the kingsguard at all (because let's face it, the old kingsguard armor was shit before the Lannisters blinged them out).
Seems like this is a common thing in WotW comments to have to connect the dots.
Illiterate cunts.
reading is fundamental
however, to be fair, deducing who was who in that fight was very difficult
Reed was wayyy bigger than I imagined
and sword of the morning was in dirt and then just back in hands??
-- Edited by BlueDragon on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 02:38:29 PM
Not that it matters, as it could be just a continuity error, but I also saw both swords sheathed when he reached for them.
And because I just rewatched that scene today, lemme gush a bit over this dude, not because he's fucking gorgeous, but because I loooved his acting and the character's demeanour, not a shred of arrogance there.
The continuity is fine. Sword in ground, puts on helmet, says badass words, pulls up ground sword and unsheathes second sword at the same time
.
Went back frame by frame.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Cosca, why are you so determined the Umbers won't turn cloak?! They did say several times the North Remembers in the show, and Tyrion specifically mentioned that to his father. If no one turns cloak, who the hell will remember? The Wildlings are Northman I grant you but they are not honorbound to the Starks. I suppose it's up the Bear Island, and a girl of 13.
I see no reason to doubt this. The show hasn't made a big deal about the Umbers being loyal, at least, not more than other bannerman. Greatjon was a big loyalist, but even he was a scumbag at the beginning, and he's dead now. Handing over Rickon is just crazy if the Smalljon is planning on betraying Ramsay. And what, he found another wolf? That head looked much bigger than a regular wolf's. And I get people saying that Rickon and Osha may be able to fight back, but overthrow a whole Castle? There was a pretty big chance Ramsay would kill both of them right then and there. And the Umbers really do despise the Wildlings, and this is there first chance to react to the Wildling threat, which hasn't been around for all that long.
As for why they'd keep Osha alive, it's true that one is a bit odd. Maybe they thought Rickon would need a maid, I don't know. Or they thought it would help vouch for Rickon being legit.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
Cosca, why are you so determined the Umbers won't turn cloak?! They did say several times the North Remembers in the show, and Tyrion specifically mentioned that to his father. If no one turns cloak, who the hell will remember? The Wildlings are Northman I grant you but they are not honorbound to the Starks. I suppose it's up the Bear Island, and a girl of 13.
I see no reason to doubt this. The show hasn't made a big deal about the Umbers being loyal, at least, not more than other bannerman. Greatjon was a big loyalist, but even he was a scumbag at the beginning, and he's dead now. Handing over Rickon is just crazy if the Smalljon is planning on betraying Ramsay. And what, he found another wolf? That head looked much bigger than a regular wolf's. And I get people saying that Rickon and Osha may be able to fight back, but overthrow a whole Castle? There was a pretty big chance Ramsay would kill both of them right then and there. And the Umbers really do despise the Wildlings, and this is there first chance to react to the Wildling threat, which hasn't been around for all that long.
As for why they'd keep Osha alive, it's true that one is a bit odd. Maybe they thought Rickon would need a maid, I don't know. Or they thought it would help vouch for Rickon being legit.
They kept her alive for the rimjobs.
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"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
I think I finally figured out what Jon threw down on the table as he was leaving the room to go out to the hangman's platform: his leather vest which was riddled with knife holes.
I think I finally figured out what Jon threw down on the table as he was leaving the room to go out to the hangman's platform: his leather vest which was riddled with knife holes.
Am I right?
Correct. I guess he won't be taking that with him.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Rickon would need a maid? Why would they worry about that and besides, have you seen the kid? It's not like he needs someone to stitch his shirts or do his hair.
Vouch for his identity? Why would a wildling woman who would obviously protect and lie for him matter when you already gave them his direwolf's head?
And if the Umbers were so pissed off at Jon, why give away Rickon without even a word of threat to Jon himself?
This show was and is more than capable to do some really bad writing. Umbers being Stark traitors would be exactly that. All I'm saying is, what if it's not bad writing in this case. Because if it isn't, none of these make sense if you look at the narrative and the timing. This is only episode 3. If you're going to have bad things happen to a good and inocent character, you don't do this as soon as that, because you can't sustain his storyline for the rest of the season. If you bring a character like Rickon back, even if you plan to kill him, you'd do it with a twist, and later in the season. You don't introduce him in a miserable situation in episode 3 just to replace Sansa as Ramsay's torture toy.
Oh, and another thing. If you already have Karstark the weasel there, why would you need another ruthless Northern Lord to do some shit for you also, and right in the next episode. They could have eliminated Karstark's presence and just have Umber take his place.
You know what would be quite funny? If Karstark is playing Ramsay too. Heh. That way the entire North would bring him down, without creating any more feuds between the other houses.
Rickon would need a maid? Why would they worry about that and besides, have you seen the kid? It's not like he needs someone to stitch his shirts or do his hair. Vouch for his identity? Why would a wildling woman who would obviously protect and lie for him matter when you already gave them his direwolf's head?
And if the Umbers were so pissed off at Jon, why give away Rickon without even a word of threat to Jon himself?
This show was and is more than capable to do some really bad writing. Umbers being Stark traitors would be exactly that. All I'm saying is, what if it's not bad writing in this case. Because if it isn't, none of these make sense if you look at the narrative and the timing. This is only episode 3. If you're going to have bad things happen to a good and inocent character, you don't do this as soon as that, because you can't sustain his storyline for the rest of the season. If you bring a character like Rickon back, even if you plan to kill him, you'd do it with a twist, and later in the season. You don't introduce him in a miserable situation in episode 3 just to replace Sansa as Ramsay's torture toy.
Oh, and another thing. If you already have Karstark the weasel there, why would you need another ruthless Northern Lord to do some shit for you also, and right in the next episode. They could have eliminated Karstark's presence and just have Umber take his place.
Just by being there, Osha is vouching for his identity. Theon knew that Osha was travelling with Rickon, and he would have told Ramsay everything. You can quibble as to why they don't just kill her and hand over I suppose, but it's still less bizzare than handing over Rickon as part of a plan.
Why would the Umbers do Jon the courtesy of a warning? And it's not like Jon can kick the Wildlings out, the Night's Watch is tiny. The wildlings are there to stay.
I just don't see how a minor House changing sides is such bad writing, particularly since hatred of the Wildlings is something that's always been there. And loyalty isn't something somebody is born with, even if his family is historically pro-Stark, doesn't mean the Smalljon is. Putting Rickon in mortal danger is far, far more stupid on Smalljon's part if he's trying to help the Starks. Osha can't protect him. Unless he's going to be personally guarding them with Umber soldiers, 24/7.
And as for why this happened so early: To actually motivate Jon and Sansa to get their shit together and start marching on Winterfell as soon as possible. They've got Houses to recruit, Sansa has to go get Littlefinger (I'm assuming). As for Rickon becoming a torture toy, I don't know if that'll happen just yet.
As for why you'd have Karstark and Umber: So that the odds seem overwhelming, and so it's not just Ramsay and a single underling discussing strategy for most of the season.
-- Edited by Cosca on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 06:42:27 AM
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
Just wanna point out how Umber knew about Jon letting the wildlings in. That's pretty interesting. News travels fast. Will they find out that Jon has resurrected? What will the general reaction be?!
Why would the Umbers do Jon the courtesy of a warning? And it's not like Jon can kick the Wildlings out, the Night's Watch is tiny. The wildlings are there to stay.
I just don't see how a minor House changing sides is such bad writing, particularly since hatred of the Wildlings is something that's always been there. And loyalty isn't something somebody is born with, even if his family is historically pro-Stark, doesn't mean the Smalljon is. Putting Rickon in mortal danger is far, far more stupid on Smalljon's part if he's trying to help the Starks. Osha can't protect him. Unless he's going to be personally guarding them with Umber soldiers, 24/7.
- It's not about the courtesy of a warning, it's about a simple "Dude wtf are you doing sending this wilding horde into my back yard?" At least show some discontent, the same way the Karstarks showed discontent before abandoning Robb, the same way Roose warned Robb before betraying him. Say what you will, but the show does plant seeds when it has to, things don't just happen without any red flags.
Letting the Wildlings through the Wall already had a price attached to it, Jon got stabbed. If you look at the narrative, there is no need for a second betrayal of a Stark, under the same pretext. And how does Umber *know* that Jon is gonna march ahead of the wildlings? Why would he do that at this point? He has no reason, this is just bullshit at this point to get Ramsay's blood going.
- One thing I don't understand, why do people emphasize so much their hatred of wildlings (Smalljon seemed rather chill about it), and downsize so much their loyalty to the Starks? The latter was much more commented on even on the show, ever since that scene with Greatjon, then when Bran told Rickon where to go because the Umbers are their most loyal bannermen, and even now in the scene with Ramsay and Karstarks, it was the very first thing they mentioned. To me the show *did* make a big deal out of it, for such a minor family that was mostly offscreen all this time.
And we say putting Rickon in danger would be stupid, yeah maybe, but that doesn't negate the possibility that they were willing to risk it. Didn't Sansa risk going to Winterfell? But she did it because she wanted a chance for revenge more. Now, that plan failed because Littlefinger didn't know Ramsay and what he was capable of, and left her there with no allies near her, and also because - let's face it - when you know of a plot beforehand in GoT, it usually fails. It would not be the case now.
You know what would be quite funny? If Karstark is playing Ramsay too. Heh.
I'd have a harder time believing that. After Robb executed Rickard they have a genuine beef with the Starks.
I see. Weird, because this Karstark seemed pretty cool with Ramsay killing his own father in cold blood. Must be ok as long as the sons are the ones doing it, and not your king for a petty thing like treason.
That being said, I was joking when I first said it. Now, after giving it some involuntary thought, I'd say it would not be that absurd. Roose saw Ramsay for what he was, and it would be fitting that all of Ramsay's calculations eventually turn to shit.
I can just say that I am fine either way. If the Umbers turn, fine, I just hope they explain the Shaggydog ploy.
If not, it will simply be a bigger army Jon and Sansa will need to face, and I like Underdog stories.
And I have a feeling Littlefinger might bring in the Vale army to boost the Stark loyalist.
In any case the Battle of Winterfell ( Aka SNOWBOWL ) will be a huge episode that should answer a lot of these questions.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
Don, tough decision. Talk about thme, Bros gotta go south methinks. It's a tale of revenge, betrayal, passions and survival! All in the season 6 of GoT They better not kill the better part of #Jonmund. That would be Tormund.
Tormund is the only stud left on this show, so they'd better keep him around for a bit. If they kill him I'll And they introduced the perfectly delectable Sword of the Morning man only to kill him two minutes in. WHAT'S WITH THAT? How are we supposed to play Marry, Bang, Kill if they keep offing the hotties?
but Osha has had time to train him further; he is wilder than wild; Rickon may have been the one to come up with the plan because HE wants inside!!
is definitely a match for Ramsey in terms of devious bed tricks.
very funny, Basi! They are true bros, all they're missing is braiding their locks.
They better not kill the better part of #Jonmund. That would be Tormund.
And they introduced the perfectly delectable Sword of the Morning man only to kill him two minutes in. 
WHAT'S WITH THAT? How are we supposed to play Marry, Bang, Kill if they keep offing the hotties?
