Tyrion was too stupid this season, true. Mostly on the Wight plan side of things, him not being the greatest military strategist isn't too surprising considering he only ever was in one battle. But I don't think Jaime, Jon, Sansa and Dany were any different. Jaime was always delusional about Cersei but the cracks started showing this season till the breaking point. Jon is always the guy rushing into danger with a badly thought out plan. Sansa has had a love/hate thing with Littlefinger going on since Season 4, and had serious trust issues that led her to fall back on him again. Dany has always vacillated between fury and cruelty on one hand, and listening to her advisors and mercy on the other.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
There were some pretty big WTF moments for me. Jon's sudden transformation into Ned at the truce talks was one of them. He's broken as many oaths as Jaime. And now he's suddenly unbending in his oath to Dany. All he needed to do was look to her to see if she would release him. Instead he is unyielding at the one time when keeping his oath is a bad idea.
True, he was never particularly good on the Night's Watch oath. Though he didn't feel particularly good about breaking it with Ygritte at first, and he had a loophole to get out of it as well. You have a point nonetheless. But he's also in love with Dany and hates Cersei, and still sees Ned as a guiding light. Kind of like how Arya and Sansa see Ned in their own warped way (he who passes the sentence swings the sword Sansa!)
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
I really think some of the nuance and consistency in how they were written got lost even with Cersei &a Jaime. In fact Jaime had a change of heart in a single scene that doesn't normally make sense. If I recall correctly Jaime left with Cersei when she refused to fight alongside Dany the Army of the Dead. He said goodbye to Tyrion on that basis. He pushed Bri away. However, somehow fighting with Cersei because she breaks her word to fight later on is the breaking point for him? With a new child on the way? Look I positively LOVED that he switched sides. But if one pays attention there's some inconsistencies even in characters I really like and are wonderfully acted.
Nah, I don't think there's inconsistency there. It's not just Cersei breaking her word that's too much for him, it's the conspiring with Euron behind his back, and the fact that he got his hopes up to finally have the chance to be a hero and she took it away from him. It's the realisation that the trust between them has been irrevocably broken, as well as that she is totally beyond reason.
-- Edited by Cosca on Wednesday 30th of August 2017 12:57:15 PM
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
Even at its current state, it's better and certainly bigger than anything on Tv. No other Tv show has my ass planted on a couch watching the clock tick down for it to start.
I am a captive audience member, and the missteps, as frustrating as they can be don't deter me for seeing this through the end.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
I am with ya, Don. Too invested at this point to care that this was the worst season to date. Also, the series hasnt hit True Blood status yet, so I wont scrap it like I did after a few seasons of that shitshow, and will see it thru till the end.
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"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
I agree that some of the nuance is lost, though I'd argue that it's hard to keep hitting gold as the years pass. Pixar went from having an unblemished reputation to turn into another Disney money making machine suffering from sequelitis. The Simpsons went from brilliant to tired and tepid.
I'd say even Breaking Bad went from having an awesome villain like Gus Fring to the uninspired one-dimensional neonazis, though the talent of the main cast and the masterful writing (which I'll admit is above GoT any day) kept the whole thing afloat. Regardless, with BCS Gilligan et al went to bring Gus, Hector Salamanca and all the familiar faces back instead of trying something entirely new. It still works for me, but it's a far cry from their better BB days.
I wouldn't say D&D are particularly *good* writers, but they kinda deserve more credit than most people are willing to give them. I don't think they're lazy. If some of the reveals feel too conventional or unsurprising, I don't think the fault lies with them, but with the 20+ years Gurm has been dangling the carrot in our faces. R + L = J has been obvious for years and years, so when it finally happened, the reveal sort of fell flat on its face.
Could it have been handled differently? Absolutely, as BaS pointed out...lolwut with Bran thinking Jon was a Sand til Sam intervened. But people going "Noooo....George wouldn't have been so obvious!!" drank all that kool-aid of GRRM being this amazingly gifted writer who came to destroy all tropes and surprise everyone with every stroke of his pen.
The books have been nosediving since 2005 anyway. I'll take the diminished show Tyrion over the book one who keeps wondering where do whores go 24/7. And goddamn Penny.
For all their faults, at least D&D didn't give us crap like Darkstar or Quentyn or (f)Aegon. Dudes gave us Hardhome instead of Jon counting food at the Wall.
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"By the Laws of Benioff and Weiss, I do sentence Linda Antonsson to death"
The books have been nosediving since 2005 anyway. I'll take the diminished show Tyrion over the book one who keeps wondering where do whores go 24/7. And goddamn Penny. For all their faults, at least D&D didn't give us crap like Darkstar or Quentyn or (f)Aegon. Dudes gave us Hardhome instead of Jon counting food at the Wall.
Holy shit, I forgot about that garbage.
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"Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.” -DN
I dont think DandD are good writers, but they are not terrible. The cast, most times, does wonders with their mediocrity. Then again, I feel that GRRM is and always was also an average writer so...(yes, the 1st 3 books, although the most enjoyable of his opus, are not that well written).
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"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
The books have been nosediving since 2005 anyway. I'll take the diminished show Tyrion over the book one who keeps wondering where do whores go 24/7. And goddamn Penny. For all their faults, at least D&D didn't give us crap like Darkstar or Quentyn or (f)Aegon. Dudes gave us Hardhome instead of Jon counting food at the Wall.
Holy shit, I forgot about that garbage.
There are books?
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"There's no cure for being a cunt." Bronn "King Stannis is my god." Davos "Who the fuck is Jon Snow?" Locke
My position has long been that GRRM was a pretty great writer for the first 3 books and a bad writer for the last two, and that D&D are good rather than great. But I don't know if the best television writers ever could make pure gold out of the mess GRRM has left them.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
As I see it, D&Ds weakpoint has always been plotting, particularly the setup. Show only storylines are invariably clunkier in their setup than book counterparts. They don't seem to be able to pull of the complex interlocking strands that GRRM pulled together for his best plots. What I see as their greatest strength is writing scenes for paired off characters, and this season didn't really take advantage of that. You could see how much better the show was when it allowed the characters to really converse in the finale, and at the beginning of Episode 6. And obviously the show can pull off spectacle easily these days. I think the writing problems will be less pronounced next season, given that most all the plot setup has already been done, and what is left is spectacle and character interaction.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
I liked Quentyn! His story was tragic. Good story. The Penny haters can suck it. Lol the RLj reveal will totally happen differently! Sansa better not get any crap about swinging the sword. Hai is going to start posting kittens.
Yeah, Howland Reed will just show up and tell people. That'll be real dramatically satisfying. Face it, there's no real great, interesting way to reveal R+L=J.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
If you think Howland Reed showing up is not interesting, the only survivor who can really attest to that scene, I'm not sure what you expected!!! and stop pissing in my coffee!
Sansa better not get any crap about swinging the sword. Hai is going to start posting kittens.
Do you have ANY idea how hard I am having to fight my natural inclinations. I think not.
Spoiler
I think I do
Just so we're clear:
Cosca wrote:
Nah, I don't think there's inconsistency there. It's not just Cersei breaking her word that's too much for him, it's the conspiring with Euron behind his back, and the fact that he got his hopes up to finally have the chance to be a hero and she took it away from him. It's the realisation that the trust between them has been irrevocably broken, as well as that she is totally beyond reason.
1. That's the second time when Cersei had plans with Euron "behind his back", letting him know only after the fact. Remember when she invited the Greyjoy to KL (?) you know, the whole the finger up the bum. Yeah, he was out of the loop then too. Didn't walk off in a puff though.
2. Totally beyond reason She DID blew up the Sept with hundreds of peeps in it, no?! I didn't hear him say anything about that.
3. Broken trust, behind back scheming... It's not like Jaime told her he's going to free Tyrion who stood accused and judged guilty of murdering their son
Nah, I don't think there's inconsistency there. It's not just Cersei breaking her word that's too much for him, it's the conspiring with Euron behind his back, and the fact that he got his hopes up to finally have the chance to be a hero and she took it away from him. It's the realisation that the trust between them has been irrevocably broken, as well as that she is totally beyond reason.
1. That's the second time when Cersei had plans with Euron "behind his back", letting him know only after the fact. Remember when she invited the Greyjoy to KL (?) you know, the whole the finger up the bum. Yeah, he was out of the loop then too. Didn't walk off in a puff though.
2. Totally beyond reason She DID blew up the Sept with hundreds of peeps in it, no?! I didn't hear him say anything about that.
3. Broken trust, behind back scheming... It's not like Jaime told her he's going to free Tyrion who stood accused and judged guilty of murdering their son
I rest my case. INCONSISTENCY.
1. Yeah, but a meeting with Euron doesn't hurt as much as Cersei implying she's going to fuck Euron. "Did you really think he's going to miss the opportunity to marry the queen?". Also, you know how it goes, one time, shame on you. Two times, shame on me.
2. Apples and oranges. It's not like he had much love for any of those people. High Sparrow, Tyrells or even Kevan. He did cripple a child so he wouldn't rat on their affair. He pretty much sums it up: if the dead win, they march south and we're dead. If Dany and Jon win, they march south and we're dead. He sees Cersei's folly, and after she pretty much threatens to have Gregor kill him, yeah, the trust is pretty much dead.
3. He did know Cersei had an unreasonable hate towards Tyrion, and believed in his innocence. It backfired with Tyrion murdering Tywin, but he was proven right when Olenna confessed. We're talking about a relative: a sibling, no less. Not political allies to help in a war campaign. Would I lie to my wife in order to save my brother's life? Probably. Doesn't mean I'm going to be happy if she allows Donald Trump to live in our house, and tolerate him saying to me how he's going to grab her by the pussy.
Not inconsistent. Plus you think Quentyn's crap fest is good. And Penny too! That automatically renders your opinion invalid.
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"By the Laws of Benioff and Weiss, I do sentence Linda Antonsson to death"
Blowing up the Sept was kill or be killed for Cersei. If she went to trial she would have been executed. It's a very extreme but actually kind of reasonable thing to do, it's not like the Mad King had any reason to burn down King's Landing other than spite. You got nuthing.
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"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett
Lol look at the two of ya! Extreme but reasonable to blow up the Sept, first conspiracy with Euron is different emotionally for Jamie than the second, he was proven right (in the end) muahahah like after 5 yrs! I'm going to pretend I didn't read about Quentyn being a crap story.
FYI you can't use the "completely broken trust" AFTER Jaime wants to leave! He wanted to leave BEFORE she threatened to kill him. The complete broken trust is supposed to be the reason he leaves in the first place!!!! Oh and he didn't believe it anyway. AND was proven correct in the next second when she wouldn't give the order see he still trusted her not to kill him.
PS: I've got everything really. I'm almost awesome!!! I wish there was more GOT eps to comment on, so I can sink properly this broship #Cosgoth #Morsca
Trash? I thought it was fantastic. Not the best, but far from the worst. And after rewatching, the finale was pretty good. I still don't like some characters' actions, but it's the culmination of their arcs I dislike, not the episode itself.
I liked Quentyn! His story was tragic. Good story. The Penny haters can suck it. Lol the RLj reveal will totally happen differently! 
Sansa better not get any crap about swinging the sword. Hai is going to start posting kittens.
and stop pissing in my coffee!
see he still trusted her not to kill him. 
I thought it was fantastic. Not the best, but far from the worst. And after rewatching, the finale was pretty good. I still don't like some characters' actions, but it's the culmination of their arcs I dislike, not the episode itself.
